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Chasing steam behind the Iron Curtain.

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Cowley

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A few months ago on a thread (I can't remember which one now unfortunately), the conversation drifted onto people's memories of following steam in the 1970s/80s in East Germany and other former eastern block countries.
I find things like that absolutely fascinating and I remember reading articles about it in the railway press, particularly Steam Railway magazine in the late eighties.
I'd love to hear about anyone's experiences of chasing the last bits of Eastern European/Russian steam in those days.

How difficult was it?
What problems did you have with the authorities?
What did you see in action and also what did you get to travel on?

A friend of mine was on the first (I think) steam hauled railtour along the Trans Siberian Railway in the mid nineties and the tour used many different locos including some that were part of the Russian strategic reserve I believe. Unfortunately I lost touch with him a few years ago and I can't remember all of the details other than that it cost him a lot of money to do it.

Any memories of any kind would be very much appreciated.
 
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Taunton

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I had to go to Western Poland in 1991, just after the curtain came down, and had heard of Wolsztyn, so went over there on a day off. Significant number of steam locos being run as a sort of museum operation - although timetabled, there were hardly any passengers any more, and only one other enthusiast around. I think there were maybe about 12 locos in steam, one of each type it seemed.
 

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I had to go to Western Poland in 1991, just after the curtain came down, and had heard of Wolsztyn, so went over there on a day off. Significant number of steam locos being run as a sort of museum operation - although timetabled, there were hardly any passengers any more, and only one other enthusiast around. I think there were maybe about 12 locos in steam, one of each type it seemed.

I've been listening to a lot of history programs about the Cold War recently while I've been working. Poland has a very interesting history.
Was the set up at Wolsztyn going before the iron curtain came down or was it a case of people from Western Europe trying to save what they could before it was too late?
 

theageofthetra

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I've been listening to a lot of history programs about the Cold War recently while I've been working. Poland has a very interesting history.
Was the set up at Wolsztyn going before the iron curtain came down or was it a case of people from Western Europe trying to save what they could before it was too late?
That's pretty much it. In Germany the hopeless DDR narrow gauge operations became classed as 'historic monuments' as soon as the wall came down which ensured their survival. Having lost around a third of their population to the Soviet holocaust I suspect the Polish were less enthusiastic to preserve that era for posterity
 

Calthrop

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I have some thoughts on these matters -- others may opine otherwise -- which I’ll try and lay out reasonably concisely. Have also reminiscences of own, of steam-chasing in parts of Eastern Europe; which (not clever about many computer things) I lack an effective means of linking to; but which means I will seek.

The USSR; and its six Eastern European “satellite” nations; and “Yugoslavia-as-then-was”; all had steam active on their state railways in appreciable quantity, well after the 1968 end of BR steam and far into the 1970s. (Am ignoring here and throughout, Albania, which was very much a “wild card” – among other things, almost-all-diesel from very early on.)

Throughout “the Soviet bloc plus Yugo”, there strongly obtained the regrettable notion on the part of authority there, that railway enthusiasts with their cameras were probably spies working for unfriendly political entities: hence endless, maddening interference with / thwarting of the desired activity, by police and other representatives of officialdom – from what I’ve heard, rarely carried on in an outright-nasty way, but unspeakably frustrating. This nuisance – while never absent – tended to be less or more acute according to country, or region-of-country. This was not always along predictable lines: supposedly-liberal Yugoslavia, running its own show in defiance of the USSR, had definitely the worst and most pervasive case of anti-photter paranoia (perhaps understandably, according to its own scheme of things). Poland -- albeit the USSR’s most troublesome and freedom-craving satellite -- was nearly as bad. East Germany was photographically highly repressive until -- very late in the day -- the penny dropped with the regime, that these people were not sinister spies; just eccentric hobbyists, out of whom a fair bit of money might be made. From the early-to-mid-1980s on (i.e. basically, the end of the whole era), E.G. became easy and welcoming for the photter.

Though in many ways, Romania was one of the more loathsome Eastern European venues in which to have to live: authority there tended to be quite “permissive” about rail photography. Likewise, so I gather, in the USSR itself; railwaymen and police often just could not be bothered to kick up a big fuss over the “spying” nonsense. The other countries, I gather, fell rather between the extremes (don’t know how things were said to be in Bulgaria).

From what I understand, from the 1960s and through the ‘70s and ‘80s, there were plenty of tours organised by various undertakings, to travel around doing rail photography in the Soviet “satellite” nations – with permission arranged with the appropriate folks over there, and with local guides / “minders” accompanying the group. One feels that this would have solved the problem of actually doing rail photography in Eastern Europe; the fact that so many people opted rather to undertake their own expeditions and undergo “the stations of the Cross” at the hands of obstructive authority – I, not a photter, can only figure that it’s very important to many to choose, and set up, their own pictures, instead of being forced into a narrow template along with a whole bunch of their fellows.

Overt gricer-friendliness or otherwise, aside: on the whole “the satellites plus Yugo” were a “wicket” generally more copeable-with for Western enthusiasts, than the Soviet Union itself. Assorted factors fed into this: one being that the USSR had proved disconcertingly quick at modernising its motive power – per apparently reliable statistics, as at 1970 only 6% of the USSR’s rail traffic was still steam-worked. While for such a huge, well-railwayed country, that was still a lot –it meant basically, higher concentration and better odds in the satellites, which were then hanging more tightly onto their steam. It tended to in be in my perception, that most steam fans heading east, eschewed the USSR; thought to be in various ways particularly and uniquely difficult, in return for relatively meagre rewards. The Soviet Union had just a few devotees, who specialised in it.
 

Calthrop

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Eastern Europe wanted to get rid of steam as greatly as the West did; they just weren’t in a position to accomplish it so soon. As with many facets of this issue, things varied from country to country. By 1980, effectively the only countries still with state-railways steam line working (shunting-type stuff with steam continued, elsewhere) were Poland, East Germany, Hungary and Yugoslavia. Poland had as many steam locos as the other three put together, and this continued to obtain for the next dozen years. This factor, plus other ones, caused me – among a number of other enthusiasts – to fall in love with the Polish steam scene in its declining years, and to make a number of visits to Poland in pursuit of steam – travelling, by preference, on timetabled local passenger trains. In the ‘80s, and once in 1970, I visited a few other E. European countries for steam (never got to Hungary or Bulgaria), but for me it was “Poland first and most”.

In the main, Poland’s steam attraction in the last dozen years was on the standard gauge; on which steam’s most prominent duties in those years, were local passenger (main-, and branch-line) – an immense branch-passenger network still running: on Poland’s state railways (PKP) in 1980, probably at about the equivalent level as for BR in 1955. As at 1980, PKP had either seven or eight (depending on how much use you have for minutiae) different s/g steam classes in action. PKP’s narrow gauge at that time was extensive, fascinating, and not steam-devoid; but had only one steam class active, and some long systems without steam. The “lesser s/g”. and the n/g, were decidedly different beasts; in a situation of meagre timetables, one or the other pretty much had to be chosen: most steam fans went for the standard-gauge-local scene.

I've been listening to a lot of history programs about the Cold War recently while I've been working. Poland has a very interesting history.
Was the set up at Wolsztyn going before the iron curtain came down or was it a case of people from Western Europe trying to save what they could before it was too late?

By my understanding: “Wolsztyn as a living museum” was originally a Polish initiative. Poland has had, since its rebirth as an independent nation nearly a hundred years ago (and probably since before that), a significant railway-enthusiast community – though not so numerous as in Britain or various other Western European countries. From around the early 1980s (in coincidental parallel with “Solidarity and all that”) there was a strong move within PKP – largely the brain-child of one particular, highly charismatic guy, a passionate rail and steam enthusiast high in PKP’s counsels – to take advantage of PKP’s being Europe’s “steamiest” remaining state rail system, to set up several “museum depots” (with an eye to tourism earnings from railfan visitors from the west; and co-opting voluntary work by Polish enthusiasts) with regular local workings therefrom operated by modern, still-active steam classes; and assorted older preserved types on special workings now and again. Such were planned, with attempted putting into action, at Wolsztyn; and Jaworzyna Śl. and Kłodzko in the south-east; and Ełk way to the north-east. Wolsztyn was the only one which truly took off: a little is still going on at Jaworzyna Śl., no steam museum action remains at the other two.

It was a thoroughly Polish undertaking until 1997, when the involvement began, of the British group “The Wolsztyn Experience”.

Originally posted byTaunton:"I had to go to Western Poland in 1991, just after the curtain came down., and had heard of Wolsztyn, so went over there on a day off. Significant number of steam locos being run as a sort of museum operation - although timetabled, there were hardly any passengers any more, and only one other enthusiast around. I think there were maybe about 12 locos in steam, one of each type it seemed."

I visited Wolsztyn in 1990 and ’91 – I’d say as Taunton describes it, except that I recall plenty of passengers. Despite wretchedly slow and infrequent local passenger schedules, I don’t recall ever seeing an empty Polish passenger train up to and including 1991 – after which there was a fierce and rapid holocaust of standard-gauge branch passenger services. I do get the picture that under Communist rules of kinds still in action for a year or two post-Communism, numerous classes of people (not only railway workers / their relatives) got free, or extremely cheap, rail travel: so a PKP branch train circa 1991 was quite likely, the same sort of scene as a present-day British country bus well-loaded with pensioners using their “Freedom Passes”, but not a single fare-paying passenger.

“The Wolsztyn Experience” being involved, has without a doubt saved steam at Wolsztyn over the past couple of decades – these have been sharp and entrepreneurial people who have availed themselves of the money forthcoming from people wishful of driving and firing steam in genuine rail public service; and have been ingenious and adroit in arranging things (sometimes not totally “officially”) with the various local parties involved – at times, at odds with each other -- in the undertaking. Nonetheless, the scope of operations from Wolsztyn and the number of locos taking part day-by-day, has drastically lessened from say the late 1990s. This is probably inevitable; with it being more appropriate to rejoice about what remains, than to lament over how much is gone.

That's pretty much it. In Germany the hopeless DDR narrow gauge operations became classed as 'historic monuments' as soon as the wall came down which ensured their survival. Having lost around a third of their population to the Soviet holocaust I suspect the Polish were less enthusiastic to preserve that era for posterity

I'd take a bit more of a mellow view, perhaps. I see "hopeless" as a bit of a harsh description of -- say -- the extensive metre-gauge Harz Mountains system, still going strong, and striking me as quite a magnificent outfit. And in my perception, the people of Poland have been and are, pretty much pragmatic / forgiving vis-a-vis USSR / Russia and 1939 -- 91. History goes at times, through very horrible ups-and-downs; and while Poland has undoubtedly been afflicted with some outstandingly awful neighbours; they're there, and have to be dealt with. I'd ascribe the shortage of enthusiasm among Poles, for supporting transport-museumising of a particular period; to their belonging to a culture which isn't very big on this particular kind of nostalgia, and to their having a lot of other, more immediate, stuff on their minds these days !
 

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Well that was a fascinating and well written reply to the questions I asked (I actually did slightly have in mind that you'd been that way steam hunting in the past Comrade Calthrop ;)).
Lots of points covered there and that's definitely given me a greater understanding of things.
I'd like to go and have a weekend doing the Harz lines. I imagine that it's all very polished now compared to how it looked pre the late eighties though it does look mightily impressive still.
It must have been very interesting looking around those countries back then, such a time of change.
 

Calthrop

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I didn't get to the Harz system till 1993 -- post-freedom, and having gone into private ownership, but still looking much as it had done under "the DR of the DDR". I gather that it was the latter's "flagship" narrow-gauge system, always an impresssive outfit.

Much splendid steam-and-rail stuff in the old Eastern Europe: I wish in retrospect that I'd gone there more and (much though I loved the Polish scene) given a more balanced share of attention there: but I never had anything like the amount of funds that I'd have wished for.

It surprises me how very many British railway enthusiasts in that era went abroad keenly to countries where they could take pictures unhindered; but refused to set foot in Eastern Europe re anything railway-ish, because of that factor. With my not being a photographer -- I've dabbled in it but never basically cared much -- I suppose it's the problem of, when you just don't "get" something. It seems narrow-minded to me on the part of these chaps, to have totally written-off a huge scene over this particular issue: but people of course -- rightly -- do and don't do, as they find appropriate.

I do hope to link to my own writings, when I can find how !
 

70014IronDuke

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I didn't get to the Harz system till 1993 -- post-freedom, and having gone into private ownership, but still looking much as it had done under "the DR of the DDR". I gather that it was the latter's "flagship" narrow-gauge system, always an impresssive outfit.

Much splendid steam-and-rail stuff in the old Eastern Europe: I wish in retrospect that I'd gone there more and (much though I loved the Polish scene) given a more balanced share of attention there: but I never had anything like the amount of funds that I'd have wished for.

Sure, but that's a universal truth. I wish I'd seen Midland compounds and the W1 at work, I wish I'd gone to France and seen 231Es ...... but if I'd been born in 1945 (and been able to do these things) I might have died of polio, and not even seen Jubilees, Scots, A4s and Castles, nor even 141Fs in France or CKD 498.1s in Czech ... the wish-list goes on ad infinitum.

It surprises me how very many British railway enthusiasts in that era went abroad keenly to countries where they could take pictures unhindered; but refused to set foot in Eastern Europe re anything railway-ish, because of that factor. With my not being a photographer -- I've dabbled in it but never basically cared much -- I suppose it's the problem of, when you just don't "get" something. It seems narrow-minded to me on the part of these chaps, to have totally written-off a huge scene over this particular issue: but people of course -- rightly -- do and don't do, as they find appropriate.
...

It's [human] horses for courses. Me and a mate landed in South Africa in 1975 without enough money to last the 89 days until due to leave. We had a plan, or three plans, but we didn't know where we were staying. Nto one night. We didn't know millions of things. But we survived with a decent bunch of photos and got back three months later. But I came back, intact, and with zillion tales. I hitchhiked to India and back a year later. Did I have problems - well yes a few. Sometimes it was dangerous. But ... For me, the leap into the unknown is what makes life. For others, . well, they need more security. I would certainly not want my daughter to be doing it!!!

still, these days, I see teenagers and 20 somethings with rucksacks studying smart phones just to negotiate a few steps. I find it awful. Does nobody dare just walk up a street anymore and see what's there without being advised?

Does everyone need to consult google maps or trip adviser before taking a single friggin step? Sometimes I stop and offer to help obviously lost tourists. Sometimes they recoil in horror (do I look like some kind of sex-fiend or something? I dunno) - sometimes their eyes light up and are happy for help in a rag-taggle of languages.
That's folks. That's life.
 

neilmc

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In the early 1970s I managed couple of trips to West Germany to see steam before deciding to ditch railway enthusiasm forever. So I never went behind the Iron Curtain but I DID see East German "reconstructed" 01 Pacifics near the border at Bebra. What magnificent locomotives.
 

Cowley

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I do hope to link to my own writings, when I can find how !

I'd very much like to read that if you were able to link it.

The friend I mentioned in my initial post (I've unfortunately lost touch with him in recent years, but will try and track him down at some point) was interested in all surviving authentic steam everywhere. He's about twenty years older than me and remembers BR steam obviously but also started going to other countries for his 'fix' in the 1970s. I got to know him around 1995 when he'd been to East Germany and other former communist countries.
He also had spent a lot of time riding on steam in India and Pakistan when it was still an everyday sight there.
Like yourself (and me actually) he was no photographer, although he did have a scrapbook with some interesting stuff in it. He just loved steam and he especially loved authentic steam.

I was really aware during that time of it coming to an end in many different parts of the world but unfortunately I didn't give myself enough of a kick up the backside to actually go and see some of it (I was 16 in 1989 when the wall came down).
 

Taunton

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In August 2010 we went on holiday to Karlovy Vary, in the Czech Republic. It had a typical East European station (like Wolsztyn in Poland), probably rebuilt in the 1960s-70s, not actually finished for things like plumbing or lighting, rather large for its services, and deserted much of the time. There was a small poster describing (it seemed, trying to decipher the Czech) some forthcoming enthusiast special with one of the very large Czech 4-8-4T tank locos, like a tank engine the size of a 9F (GWR 72xx, feel diminished). There was no practical rail service to Prague, which we went to and fro by nonstop express coach, which ran every 30 minutes. It's about a 2 hour trip.

Returning to Prague, by the most amazing coincidence the coach got stopped on the main road at a level crossing in the middle of nowhere, crossing what looked like an obscure branch, and said loco and its excursion train passed very slowly right in front of us. It was here https://www.google.es/maps/@50.1710...4!1sO6VZ06ZAtVp7lWKvXVkGJA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 . The 4-8-4T was painted a bright blue colour. Because of the vegetation, I never saw it until it passed across the road.

I see it was 28 August 2010, late morning. Is there anyone keen enough to have info on what the excursion was?
 
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ChiefPlanner

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I suspect one of the reasons for the DDR hanging onto steam in the 1970's and 1980's was to some extent the charging by their fraternal brothers in Russia of the market price for oil. (export to the West for higher revenue) - this led for example to intensification of brown coal mining for industry and power plants - with desperate effects on the environment.

Even so - I am told that the DDR was aware of the ability to earn hard Western cash from steam tourists , and subtly marketed this , even though one was bound to stay in approved accommodation etc.

I wish I had done more - did Hannover to Berlin on a DB service in about 1985 , and there were plenty of stored 2-10-0's at Magdeburg and only one tank engine seen in steam at Wansee. In 1989 there was a professional railway visit to Berlin - which despite the wall coming down , was honoured by DDR and DB.

Apart from gatecrashing (on the suggestion of the DB Manager) , the re-opening of Unter der Linden on the S-Bahn , (very emotional for the locals and both Mayors attended) , we had a great trip to Dresden in classic DR apple green stock and we returned later to do some of the narrow gauge. The staff were incredibly friendly - more so when we showered them with Network South East ties and bags etc , so the footplate was accessed and the shed keys given for Radeburg (please lock it when you leave and post the keys back in !) - the lines had full passenger service to quite late , and carried parcels and newspapers etc , and handled transfer freight.
 

Calthrop

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Sure, but that's a universal truth. I wish I'd seen Midland compounds and the W1 at work, I wish I'd gone to France and seen 231Es ...... but if I'd been born in 1945 (and been able to do these things) I might have died of polio, and not even seen Jubilees, Scots, A4s and Castles, nor even 141Fs in France or CKD 498.1s in Czech ... the wish-list goes on ad infinitum.

Verily... I've no doubt that British enthusiasts born around the turn of the 19th / 20th centuries, bitterly regretted their just missing the 7ft gauge...

It's [human] horses for courses. Me and a mate landed in South Africa in 1975 without enough money to last the 89 days until due to leave. We had a plan, or three plans, but we didn't know where we were staying. Nto one night. We didn't know millions of things. But we survived with a decent bunch of photos and got back three months later. But I came back, intact, and with zillion tales. I hitchhiked to India and back a year later. Did I have problems - well yes a few. Sometimes it was dangerous. But ... For me, the leap into the unknown is what makes life. For others, . well, they need more security. I would certainly not want my daughter to be doing it!!!

still, these days, I see teenagers and 20 somethings with rucksacks studying smart phones just to negotiate a few steps. I find it awful. Does nobody dare just walk up a street anymore and see what's there without being advised?

Does everyone need to consult google maps or trip adviser before taking a single friggin step? Sometimes I stop and offer to help obviously lost tourists. Sometimes they recoil in horror (do I look like some kind of sex-fiend or something? I dunno) - sometimes their eyes light up and are happy for help in a rag-taggle of languages.
That's folks. That's life.

Yep -- humans are endlessly varied and different. One suspects that many of the electronic-gadget generation as described, would cope and adapt surprisingly well and quickly, if suddenly deprived of said gadgets.

In the early 1970s I managed couple of trips to West Germany to see steam before deciding to ditch railway enthusiasm forever. So I never went behind the Iron Curtain but I DID see East German "reconstructed" 01 Pacifics near the border at Bebra. What magnificent locomotives.

An interesting feature of Europe's east / west division was, certainly, the existence thus of a number of locations all along the "Curtain", where "Eastern" countries' locos ran across to / from junctions / cities in the West, to exchange trains with their rail-undertaking counterparts; and thus to be photographable without the "perpetrator" getting into trouble. Up until various dates, there were interesting such situations involving West Germany / Austria, and Czechoslovakia.

The friend I mentioned in my initial post (I've unfortunately lost touch with him in recent years, but will try and track him down at some point) was interested in all surviving authentic steam everywhere. He's about twenty years older than me and remembers BR steam obviously but also started going to other countries for his 'fix' in the 1970s. I got to know him around 1995 when he'd been to East Germany and other former communist countries.
He also had spent a lot of time riding on steam in India and Pakistan when it was still an everyday sight there.
Like yourself (and me actually) he was no photographer, although he did have a scrapbook with some interesting stuff in it. He just loved steam and he especially loved authentic steam.

I was really aware during that time of it coming to an end in many different parts of the world but unfortunately I didn't give myself enough of a kick up the backside to actually go and see some of it (I was 16 in 1989 when the wall came down).

I have a 25-year lead on you, as against your described friend’s twenty. Felt and feel much the same as him, about “real” regular-service steam wherever in the world; but re hunting it, I made a less successful job of the whole thing – botched matters in various ways, so that my resources were always on the meagre side (and was never brave enough to do like 70014IronDuke and just head off to somewhere alarming, trusting to fortune to find some way of earning, when out there !).

It’s been the long, sad worldwide decline for real steam, for sure, over the past forty-plus years. I have a friend, born 1947 – a tiny bit before me – who has a rather melancholy, pessimistic outlook on life. He remarks dolefully that he has been photographically steam-chasing almost lifelong (he’s got to a fair number more places than me), and wherever he's gone, has always managed only to be pretty much “at the last knockings” there.

There was a small poster describing (it seemed, trying to decipher the Czech) some forthcoming enthusiast special with one of the very large Czech 4-8-4T tank locos, like a tank engine the size of a 9F (GWR 72xx, feel diminished).

On first seeing pictures of these Czech 4-8-4Ts (a succession of several classes of them) as a kid in the 1950s: they struck me -- in part because they just looked so huge -- as something out of horror-science-fiction, and not visually appealing machines at all. Will emphasise that in time, I grew out of this childish prejudice.
Returning to Prague, by the most amazing coincidence the coach got stopped on the main road at a level crossing in the middle of nowhere, crossing what looked like an obscure branch, and said loco and its excursion train passed very slowly right in front of us. It was here https://www.google.es/maps/@50.1710...4!1sO6VZ06ZAtVp7lWKvXVkGJA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 . The 4-8-4T was painted a bright blue colour. Because of the vegetation, I never saw it until it passed across the road.

I see it was 28 August 2010, late morning. Is there anyone keen enough to have info on what the excursion was?

I've had a look at the possibly time-relevant issues of "the late" Continental Railway Journal, which usually did not a bad job with reports from the Czech Republic: they mentioned some doings with steam, around that period in 2010 -- but nothing corresponding to the working which you mention.

I suspect one of the reasons for the DDR hanging onto steam in the 1970's and 1980's was to some extent the charging by their fraternal brothers in Russia of the market price for oil. (export to the West for higher revenue) - this led for example to intensification of brown coal mining for industry and power plants - with desperate effects on the environment.

Have gathered that this was a factor -- believe that owing to oil-supply issues, in the late 1970s DR did, re steam classes which they had earlier converted to oil-firing: some switching of individual locos back to coal-firing / reducing use of oil-fired steam types, in favour of coal-fired equivalents. Parallel action / non-action on PKP at the time, I believe: Poland had coal in great quantity -- with problems on the oil scene, a headlong rush to dieselise everything remaining that wasn't electric, was seen not to make much sense.
 
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StephenHunter

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An interesting feature of Europe's east / west division was, certainly, the existence thus of a number of locations all along the "Curtain", where "Eastern" countries' locos ran across to / from junctions / cities in the West, to exchange trains with their rail-undertaking counterparts; and thus to be photographable without the "perpetrator" getting into trouble. Up until various dates, there were interesting such situations involving West Germany / Austria, and Czechoslovakia.

You had SZD (Soviet Railways) sleeper cars running all the way to Paris and beyond at times; still have RZD ones of course.

Not old enough to have done this, but I've read stuff about it and I actually have some British Rail European timetables from the period (1974-75, 1980-81, Summer 1981). These have through routes all the way to Moscow via Hook of Holland; Hook-Moscow cars were certainly in use.

At any rate, you needed a visa in advance of visiting the countries in question (with the exception of Yugoslavia at various times, it seems), which involved an application to the embassy.

It's not steam, but if you're in eastern Germany, there's a lovely little electric railway (600V DC overhead) at Buckow that's directly connected to the Berlin Lichtenberg-Kostrzyn line.
 

Calthrop

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At any rate, you needed a visa in advance of visiting the countries in question (with the exception of Yugoslavia at various times, it seems), which involved an application to the embassy.

In my first-hand experience, visa-type doings for the various “satellites” varied from country to country, re both financial cost, and “easier / more difficult”. It happened that I never had to negotiate individually for myself, a visit to East Germany in the Communist era. To get a tourist visa for Poland, you were both “bled” financially, and made to jump through complicated administrative hoops. Free spirits, and a trial to their Soviet masters, though the Poles may have been at “grass-roots” level; it did seem that as regards official doings, they often sought to make things more rather than less tough, for visitors from the West.
 

70014IronDuke

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I suspect one of the reasons for the DDR hanging onto steam in the 1970's and 1980's was to some extent the charging by their fraternal brothers in Russia of the market price for oil. (export to the West for higher revenue) - this led for example to intensification of brown coal mining for industry and power plants - with desperate effects on the environment. ....
.

Er, ... I can in no way claim to be an economic historian of the former Soviet bloc, but I am prepared to bet a pint of [name your beer] this is not correct. Moscow in communist times used the so-called "Convertible Rouble" as its trading currency. This was a kind of proto-euro for the bloc which, in time-honoured Soviet tradition was neither a genuine rouble nor convertible.

I do not nor did not know the DDR in any detail, but I can't see why they treated it any differently from an economic point of view from Bulgaria or Poland or Hungary. They may have adjusted prices a bit in 1973-74, but in the main, in terms of energy, the USSR actually subsised most of its satellites (and Soviet citizens complained about this, at least in private).

Whatever, the system used among its fraternal socialist brother nations meant that the Satellite countries could export bottom-shelf wine (and worse), imitation Swiss kinves and smoke-belching buses to the USSR n exchange for sulphur-rich black oil.

As a result, at least up to 1989, petrol and fuel prices in general were a fraction of what they were in the West, but come 1990, as the entire system unwound, the price of oil DID get put onto market levels, redenominated in dollars, and yet more chaos in the region ensued. (Exept, of course, in the decaying USSR, where oligarchs in-the-know earned fabulous wealth.)
 

70014IronDuke

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..... There was a small poster describing (it seemed, trying to decipher the Czech) some forthcoming enthusiast special with one of the very large Czech 4-8-4T tank locos, like a tank engine the size of a 9F (GWR 72xx, feel diminished). There was no practical rail service to Prague, which we went to and fro by nonstop express coach, which ran every 30 minutes. It's about a 2 hour trip.

Returning to Prague, by the most amazing coincidence the coach got stopped on the main road at a level crossing in the middle of nowhere, crossing what looked like an obscure branch, and said loco and its excursion train passed very slowly right in front of us. It was here https://www.google.es/maps/@50.1710...4!1sO6VZ06ZAtVp7lWKvXVkGJA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 . The 4-8-4T was painted a bright blue colour. Because of the vegetation, I never saw it until it passed across the road.
...

I confess that in the early 1970s I was mesmerised by the idea of blue locomotives, and yearned to see the Czech locos, primarily the 4-8-2 498.1s.
So I went. Too late for the 498.0s and 498.1s, as it turned out they were in store (story of much of my life). However, I did see some of these tanks. In fact, I think I was hauled by one. I foget now if it was blue or not, but somehow .... I find them disappoiniing. The light blue makes them look like Thomas, and, frankly, they look badly proportioned. I would MUCH rather see a green Turkish version of the Prussian 4-6-4T (078 in DB speak) -handsome, and far better proportioned locos.

For all my liking the Czechs, I reckon they got this one wrong.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Er, ... I can in no way claim to be an economic historian of the former Soviet bloc, but I am prepared to bet a pint of [name your beer] this is not correct. Moscow in communist times used the so-called "Convertible Rouble" as its trading currency. This was a kind of proto-euro for the bloc which, in time-honoured Soviet tradition was neither a genuine rouble nor convertible.

I do not nor did not know the DDR in any detail, but I can't see why they treated it any differently from an economic point of view from Bulgaria or Poland or Hungary. They may have adjusted prices a bit in 1973-74, but in the main, in terms of energy, the USSR actually subsised most of its satellites (and Soviet citizens complained about this, at least in private).

Whatever, the system used among its fraternal socialist brother nations meant that the Satellite countries could export bottom-shelf wine (and worse), imitation Swiss kinves and smoke-belching buses to the USSR n exchange for sulphur-rich black oil.

As a result, at least up to 1989, petrol and fuel prices in general were a fraction of what they were in the West, but come 1990, as the entire system unwound, the price of oil DID get put onto market levels, redenominated in dollars, and yet more chaos in the region ensued. (Exept, of course, in the decaying USSR, where oligarchs in-the-know earned fabulous wealth.)

Merely quoting from memory some material in various books I have about the DDR , and about how the rising standards of living "enjoyed" from the Ulbricht era was challenged after 1973 by the international oil crises and how Honneker tried to cover things up , as the overall economy fell - (and the special funds were allocated to buy token luxeries like coffee and bananas to try and keep some semblance of a "workers and peasants paradise" - certainly the added pressure on brown coal mining in the Zittau area which very nearly closed the narrow gauge lines in the area reinforces some of these views.

I would very happily buy you a pint anytime , in any case !
 

StephenHunter

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Er, ... I can in no way claim to be an economic historian of the former Soviet bloc, but I am prepared to bet a pint of [name your beer] this is not correct. Moscow in communist times used the so-called "Convertible Rouble" as its trading currency. This was a kind of proto-euro for the bloc which, in time-honoured Soviet tradition was neither a genuine rouble nor convertible.

I do not nor did not know the DDR in any detail, but I can't see why they treated it any differently from an economic point of view from Bulgaria or Poland or Hungary. They may have adjusted prices a bit in 1973-74, but in the main, in terms of energy, the USSR actually subsised most of its satellites (and Soviet citizens complained about this, at least in private).

Also, the Soviets took a lot of the inter-war electrification equipment in their zone back home as war reparations.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Steam engines were the workhorses after the war and remained important for a long time into the period of German partition. The DR's last steam engine (on normal-gauge tracks) was taken out of service on 28 May 1988. Much of the electrified rail network that existed in (present-day) eastern Germany in 1945 had been removed and sent to the Soviet Union as war reparations in the early years of Soviet occupation. By the early 1970s, only a small portion of the tracks in the GDR had been electrified in comparison with those in Western Europe; the GDR leadership chose to reduce the pace of electrification and instead relied on mostly Russian-made diesel locomotives due to the easy availability of fuel from the Soviet Union at subsidised prices.

When the GDR's energy costs began to rise dramatically in the early 1980s (in part because the Soviet Union ceased to subsidize the price of fuel sold to the GDR), the DR embarked on a large rail electrification campaign as the GDR's electrical power grid could be supplied with electricity generated from the burning of domestically-produced lignite. The electrified rail network grew from 11.5% (1979) to 27.3% (1990)
 

Taunton

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At the risk of getting into a political discussion, there does seem to be a significant difference between various points of view dependent on your country in question. Which is, for example, not too different to that, dependent on your view, of WW2 as British, French, German or American ...

My own experience is principally of Russia and their view.

The Soviet Railways (SZD) got a vast amount of their equipment (which by and large included Russia etc in the 20 years after the end, 1990-2010, when they just ran on with what they had) from Eastern Europe. Maybe it's not realised that ALL SZD passenger electric locos were made by Skoda in Czechoslovakia, all large diesel shunters (thousands of them) by CKD Tatra, also from Czechoslovakia, all restaurant cars from the DDR, articulated buses (tens of thousands) from Ikarus in Hungary, etc. In case you think quality was poor, very many of all these are still around and in service.

These were all paid for by Soviet raw materials, oil and gas, and various other manufactures, in a manner quite comparable to western trading. There are nonsense stories, on both sides, about how the relative prices were skewed; the Eastern Europeans say the Soviets fiddled it, the Russians say the Eastern Europeans fiddled it. As you may guess, the real answer was pretty much straight down the middle.

I'm not clear what the Soviets did with the German electrification equipment they took back, my guess is they took it as scrap, as none of the Soviet installations used it (I believe they made some short use of the BVG U-bahn trains from Berlin in Moscow).

The Soviets, and Eastern Europeans, ran a substantial number of aircraft, both civil and military, to Cuba, but their planes did not have the range to do it nonstop, so they stopped at Shannon in Ireland. The fuel needed initially to be paid for in hard currency, which was a considerable expense, so they arranged at government level to build a tank farm there, and shipped by the tankerload Soviet aviation fuel from the Black Sea ports round to Ireland. Having got this going they then offered the fuel, given that Ireland has no domestic oil industry, to other airlines, who initially were reluctant, until testing showed the fuel was perfectly to international specification. Which was pretty much the story with the rest of Soviet products. They were a very technological society, notwithstanding their vast continuing heritage with literature and music composers, and generally knew what they were doing.

The USA paid a pen manufacturer millions of US Dollars to devise a pen which their astronauts on the moon programme could use to write with when weightless in space.

The Soviets just took pencils :)
 
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70014IronDuke

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Also, the Soviets took a lot of the inter-war electrification equipment in their zone back home as war reparations.

The Soviets (in)famously took whatever they could lay their hands on as 'reparations' - including men and women. But was there much electrification equipment to take? I'd have thought they took more steam locomotives and carriages and goods trucks by comparison.
 

70014IronDuke

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At the risk of getting into a political discussion,
... ...
Having got this going they then offered the fuel, given that Ireland has no domestic oil industry, to other airlines, who initially were reluctant, until testing showed the fuel was perfectly to international specification. Which was pretty much the story with the rest of Soviet products. They were a very technological society, notwithstanding their vast continuing heritage with literature and music composers, and generally knew what they were doing. ...

Yes and no. In my assessment, engineering was generally a 'safe' profession in the Soviet bloc in the sense that it was, at its foundations, less politicised than many areas of professional life. A Soviet or Polish or Romanian engineer could design and plan according to fundamentals apart from party doctrines - to a point.

I have no idea about the kerosene fuel quality that you write about. You may be 100% correct.

However, to say "they knew what they were doing" hides the reality that east European and Soviet goods were - in the main - significantly inferior to western (and Japanese) products, a trend that became ever more apparent from the 1960s onwards.

If we take their commercial airliners, for example, did the Tupolev jets crash more than Boeings? I don't know, maybe not. Certainly I was told many years ago by Tupolev pilots that they were safe enough - only the same pilots admitted they guzzled fuel at a horrible rate, and the noise was enough to fail noise limits of the 1940s.

Same with their nuclear reactors - they could not build large reactors in the 1980s (above 440 MW) because their welding techniques simply were not adanced enough - this at a time when the west was building 1000 MW units. (or something near).

I have an imitation Swiss army knife made in Czechoslovakia that I bought in the east in the 1980s for about a pound. I love it (as a momento) - but the steel is, frankly ... pooh. I used a Zenit B camera in the early 70s - but I used it because it was cheap and affordable - it did 'a job' - but I knew it wasn't the best quality. And I upgraded to a Japanese maker when I had the cash. The list goes on. (To get back to railways .... look at the Romanian Class 56s - a move which, when announced, caused jaws to drop everywhere on the engineering side at the time. I mean, you say the MetroVicks were bad, and then you do this?)

I do not wish to denigrate the engineers (or other technical professionals, eg pharmaceutical professionals and medical doctors) from the Warsaw Pact countries, and in one sense I fully agree that they "knew what they were doing" just as much as their western colleagues. But let this not obscure the fact that the overall system and environment within which they worked meant the general quality of goods and services, while relatively cheap, was absolutely of inferior standards vis-a-vis the west.

And, let's face it, the overall depressing system in which they worked just wore many of them down. So I don't blame them.

Notwithstanding what I've just written, I do not doubt there were exceptions that could be highlighted here and there in numerous fields of human endeavour. I'm talking of the general trend. Which is, of course, one reason why the whole caboodle eventually collapsed.
 

Cowley

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Very interesting posts, learning plenty here. Thanks all
(I'd buy you both a pint if I could listen to the conversation).
 
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