Chester - Liverpool Merseyrail Services

[Llandudno]

With the benefit of hindsight perhaps electrification to Chester with trains every 15 minutes all day, every day, like the Southport service and a class 153 hourly shuttle from Hooton to Helsby would have been better.

It could be argued that this would have been more beneficial to the residents of Ellesmere Port as it would give travel opportunities in both directions all day, every day, even more so if the fast Northern service from Chester to Leeds called at Helsby?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the benefit of hindsight perhaps electrification to Chester with trains every 15 minutes all day, every day, like the Southport service and a class 153 hourly shuttle from Hooton to Helsby would have been better.

Or even hourly Hooton-Manchester?

 

[Ianno87]

With the benefit of hindsight perhaps electrification to Chester with trains every 15 minutes all day, every day, like the Southport service and a class 153 hourly shuttle from Hooton to Helsby would have been better.

It could be argued that this would have been more beneficial to the residents of Ellesmere Port as it would give travel opportunities in both directions all day, every day, even more so if the fast Northern service from Chester to Leeds called at Helsby?

Unfortunately, the cold hard numbers meant that would require an extra DMU overall, thus not a cost saving. Additionally, Chester wasn't probably quite the source of demand/revenue that it is today.

 

[prod_pep]

I don't think the New Brighton line can reasonably be described as "busy" compared with the rest of the network. Very empty off-peak and nowhere near as busy as any of the Northern Line branches (including Kirkby) or the Chester line. Even the summer weekend traffic is relatively poor, not troubling a three car set's seating capacity.

As for non-Liverpool demand, it will surely be highest on the Southport line by a good margin and then a close-run thing between Ormskirk and Chester for second place. There is a surprising amount of Aintree to Maghull travel on this route in my experience and it is well used by students. The Kirkby line is also remarkably well patronised for such a short branch.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for non-Liverpool demand, it will surely be highest on the Southport line by a good margin and then a close-run thing between Ormskirk and Chester for second place. There is a surprising amount of Aintree to Maghull travel on this route in my experience and it is well used by students. The Kirkby line is also remarkably well patronised for such a short branch.

A lot of kids from Aintree go to Maghull Deyes High School I believe, and some even used to go to Ormskirk Grammar and Cross Hall before they merged (resulting in a smaller catchment). You'll also get some travel to Preston via Ormskirk though I'd imagine anyone from about Aintree southwards would go via Lime St instead.

Re Kirkby I suspect a combination of low car ownership and the fact that it's just not a nice place to spend time (a lot of the housing is decent enough but the town centre is an abject dump with limited employment, though there is some e.g. Barclaycard where my Dad worked and I did work experience), so for most things barring a trip to Tesco you go to Liverpool, it's quick and cheap.

Talking of car ownership, Merseyrail, being very similar to a German S-Bahn, has the same level of "loyalty" - that is, if you live near a station going into Liverpool by car or bus[1] simply isn't on the agenda, even though driving into Liverpool is not actually *that* bad an experience other than in the peaks.

[1] Unless you've got an ENCTS pass so it's free, but within the PTE area the train is free too so that doesn't affect much of the network, just north of Maghull North and south of Hooton.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

When I was a passenger rep on the Ellesmere Port & Neston Public Transport Liaison Committee, I had to fight tooth and nail against barmpot plans to reduce the Hooton - Ellesmere Port service to a shuttle. Railfuture NorthWest even had a front page spread on its magazine proposing this. I threatened to resign in protest. If that had happened, Liverpool-bound passengers would have needed to go up and down stairs at Hooton to make connections - and do it twice if they needed to visit the ticket office to avoid the risk of a penalty fare. Patronage would decline and evening and Sunday services would be threatened.

Why should people in Ellesmere Port suffer, I argued, just because people in Chester, Birkenhead and Liverpool wanted a 15-minute service as they were too lazy to read a timetable? But this has become academic as there is now a 15 minute service from Liverpool to Chester during the day and a 30-minute service from Liverpool to Ellesmere Port. My main concern now is how long the off-peak connection time at Hooton (Ellesmere Port to/from Chester) will be when the service is recast with the new trains.

(And thank you again Bletchleyite for yet another of your regular put downs from afar on Ellesmere Port rail services. It annoys me when people suggest cut backs in services they don't personally have to use.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was a passenger rep on the Ellesmere Port & Neston Public Transport Liaison Committee, I had to fight tooth and nail against barmpot plans to reduce the Hooton - Ellesmere Port service to a shuttle. Railfuture NorthWest even had a front page spread on its magazine proposing this. I threatened to resign in protest. If that had happened, Liverpool-bound passengers would have needed to go up and down stairs at Hooton to make connections - and do it twice if they needed to visit the ticket office to avoid the risk of a penalty fare. Patronage would decline and evening and Sunday services would be threatened.

Would this be so bad, though, if the station was rebuilt with a central bay on an island (and doors opened on both sides) making it cross-platform both ways?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is very different from the other branch that goes outside the PTE area (Chester, so back on topic) because Hooton, the boundary station, is basically in the middle of a field.

But being rapidly surrounded by new housing being built in said field.
Hooton is also a draw from quite a wide area, including people like me from North Wales.
The Borderlands line is nearer but has a much inferior service with a bleak change at Bidston.
The 6tph into Liverpool (in normal times) is unbeatable, and it has a spacious, cheap and secure car park (council run)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Would this be so bad, though, if the station was rebuilt with a central bay on an island (and doors opened on both sides) making it cross-platform both ways?

What would be the point in spending lots of money reconfiguring a station to allow changes to services which will make rail travel less convenient for a lot of people?

If there is money to spare, it would be better spent on providing extra platform capacity at Chester.

 

[prod_pep]

A lot of kids from Aintree go to Maghull Deyes High School I believe, and some even used to go to Ormskirk Grammar and Cross Hall before they merged (resulting in a smaller catchment). You'll also get some travel to Preston via Ormskirk though I'd imagine anyone from about Aintree southwards would go via Lime St instead.

Indeed. I remember one of the afternoon 6 car workings from Ormskirk (the 15.35 possibly) was always very well loaded with schoolkids from Maghull travelling back towards Liverpool. I assume the equivalent service in the new timetable is similarly busy.

Regarding the Wirral Line branches interworking, there are a couple of further benefits which include saving a unit which can be used to provide an additional 6 car and removing some of the excess padding on the New Brighton and West Kirby branches: the New Brighton line has a dismal average speed of just 18 mph at present. The pattern New Brighton - Liverpool - West Kirby - Liverpool - Chester allows 6 car workings to be put on which are needed on certain Chester services. Currently, the short turnaround and lack of extra electrified platforms at Chester prevents this. A total of 14 units would be needed for the aforementioned circuit (15 if self-contained), with Ellesmere Port's provision a separate issue.

I understand the frustration of locals, but I still think Merseyrail would have been justified in reducing the Ellesmere Port line to a shuttle from Hooton when Chester went to 4 trains per hour. It is the quietest part of the network by a significant margin. I'm not in favour of cutting services willy-nilly but it is clear the demand is on the Chester line.

All this is academic of course with the new trains not far away.

 

[Ianno87]

What would be the point in spending lots of money reconfiguring a station to allow changes to services which will make rail travel less convenient for a lot of people?

If there is money to spare, it would be better spent on providing extra platform capacity at Chester.

Would be a difficult sell to Merseytravel now:

"Can we rebuild Hooton station"
"Why?"
"So we can reduce the frequency at all stations between Birkenhead Central and Hooton from 6 to 4 trains per hour"

...

"No".



(Would've made more sense if it had been done *before* Chester went to 4tph)

 

[Camden]

reducing the Ellesmere Port line to a shuttle from Hooton when Chester went to 4 trains per hour. It is the quietest part of the network by a significant margin. I'm not in favour of cutting services willy-nilly but it is clear the demand is on the Chester line.

But what no one has said so far is what this would achieve to anyone's benefit.

At least one train would need to be dedicated to trundling these few stations. And for how long would that continue before it was argued that is no longer a viable line?

Meanwhile, the main trunk of the Wirral serving around 20 to 30 percent of the wider city's population would be left with just 4tph down from 6, possibly impacting on custom there and certainly making travel less useful and more cramped.

It's a race to the bottom, and unnecessary. As I say, many tube lines "cart fresh air" to their extremeties. Would TfL be justified in slowly closing those bits down too, until eventually the Bakerloo starts at Baker Street and ends at Waterloo, closing at 8pm?

It's a system, and if parts are suboptimal look to improve them to improve the system.

Finishing that particular line to the nearest interchange, Helsby with its much improved connections, would help matters no end, and would hardly cost the earth.

 

[TheSel]

...

Why should people in Ellesmere Port suffer, I argued, just because people in Chester, Birkenhead and Liverpool wanted a 15-minute service as they were too lazy to read a timetable?

...

I think it's stretching credulity just a touch to suggest that the reason for wanting a fifteen minute service was that people "were too lazy to read a timetable".

 

[Ianno87]

But what no one has said so far is what this would achieve to anyone's benefit.

At least one train would need to be dedicated to trundling these few stations. And for how long would that continue before it was argued that is no longer a viable line?

Meanwhile, the main trunk of the Wirral serving around 20 to 30 percent of the wider city's population would be left with just 4tph down from 6, possibly impacting on custom there and certainly making travel less useful and more cramped.

It's a race to the bottom, and unnecessary. As I say, many tube lines "cart fresh air" to their extremeties. Would TfL be justified in slowly closing those bits down too, until eventually the Bakerloo starts at Baker Street and ends at Waterloo, closing at 8pm?

It's a system, and if parts are suboptimal look to improve them to improve the system.

Finishing that particular line to the nearest interchange, Helsby with its much improved connections, would help matters no end, and would hardly cost the earth.

As I see it:

-Electrification to Ellesmere Port was justifed by BR on the grounds that it would support 4tph north of Hooton, with 2tph to Chester and 2tph to EP

-The alternative would have been 4tph to Chester, but EP retaining a shuttle. The shuttle would have required at least one extra unit, so the extra electrification cost to EP was justified in terms of saving the ongoing cost of this extra unit to form a shuttle (and without cutting EP off entirely). Chester itself probably did not justify 4tph at the time


-When Chester did warrant 4tph, one could *probably* have justified a business case for a rebuild of Hooton so that Liverpool-Chester could have become 4tph, with EP shuttles. But that ship has now sailed

-EP shuttles could have allowed EP to increase to 4tph (albeit with cross-platform connections at Hooton) and thus also get a service improvement. This would be justified as fewer units would be required compared to running 6tph all day north of Hooton which is *probably* in excess of required capacity.


FWIW carting fresh air to the ends of tube lines is a huge source of inefficiency for TfL. E.g..No way does Cockfosters need ~18tph. It is simply the lack of robust turnbacks along the way (other than the 6tph turned at Arnos Grove) that prevent the service being thinned out more (given that ~24tph is absolutely essential in Zome 1)

 

[Camden]

If 2tph extended for a short distance from a useful 6tph (through a major metropolitan area) is begrudged, I find it rather difficult to accept it's driven by a desire to provide 4tph service to the stations being dismissed as unworthy.

Do you live on or use any Merseyrail lines I don't wonder.

 

[Ianno87]

If 2tph extended for a short distance from a useful 6tph (through a major metropolitan area) is begrudged, I find it rather difficult to accept it's driven by a desire to provide 4tph service to the stations being dismissed as unworthy.

Do you live on or use any Merseyrail lines I don't wonder.

There is 6tph now, so 6tph should rightly continue. I'm not suggesting it should now be withdrawn.

But if history had been different and 6tph had never been introduced, it wouldn't be missed *and* there would have been a good opportunity to give Ellesmere Port 4tph at low incremental cost. An opporrtunity now sadly has been completely missed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's stretching credulity just a touch to suggest that the reason for wanting a fifteen minute service was that people "were too lazy to read a timetable".

In any case the principle of the 15 minute clockface service is that you don't need to read a timetable, you just need to remember one number and be able to add 15 to it, with the help of your watch if you want.

Even better where the Sunday, early morning and late evening is the same number with 30 added to it, which it is on most if not all lines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If 2tph extended for a short distance from a useful 6tph (through a major metropolitan area) is begrudged, I find it rather difficult to accept it's driven by a desire to provide 4tph service to the stations being dismissed as unworthy.

It isn't *that* useful a 6tph, though, as it's 4tph evenly spaced with another 2 over the top. If it was "every 10 minutes" that would be really great (easier to add 10 to a number than 15), though it would mean a 10-20 split at Chester which might be annoying.

I did at one point toy in my mind with the idea that Merseyrail should move to a 10 minute base on all lines (20 minute at quiet times and Sundays), using fixed formation 4x20m trains and no doubling up, and with half of the Ormskirk line trains turning at Maghull (North now, potentially) and probably half the Hunts Cross at South Parkway. I half (!) recall the issue with that is level crossings on some lines, though.

Do you live on or use any Merseyrail lines I don't wonder.

I grew up with it. My local station for my first 7 years was Old Roan, then Aughton Park until I went to uni.

 

[Ianno87]

It isn't *that* useful a 6tph, though, as it's 4tph evenly spaced with another 2 over the top. If it was "every 10 minutes" that would be really great (easier to add 10 to a number than 15), though it would mean a 10-20 split at Chester which might be annoying.

I did at one point toy in my mind with the idea that Merseyrail should move to a 10 minute base on all lines (20 minute at quiet times and Sundays), using fixed formation 4x20m trains and no doubling up, and with half of the Ormskirk line trains turning at Maghull (North now, potentially) and probably half the Hunts Cross at South Parkway. I half (!) recall the issue with that is level crossings on some lines, though.



I grew up with it. My local station for my first 7 years was Old Roan, then Aughton Park until I went to uni.

Yes, I'd imagine it would inflate the risk categorisation of the level crossings, particularly on the Southport line where there are several busy crossings where a road solution would be exceedingly difficult. And some crossings would virtually never open to road users!

 

[TheSel]

Yes, I'd imagine it would inflate the risk categorisation of the level crossings, particularly on the Southport line where there are several busy crossings where a road solution would be exceedingly difficult. And some crossings would virtually never open to road users!

It could be argued that not opening crossings to road users would INCREASE safety!

 

[frodshamfella]

But what no one has said so far is what this would achieve to anyone's benefit.

At least one train would need to be dedicated to trundling these few stations. And for how long would that continue before it was argued that is no longer a viable line?

Meanwhile, the main trunk of the Wirral serving around 20 to 30 percent of the wider city's population would be left with just 4tph down from 6, possibly impacting on custom there and certainly making travel less useful and more cramped.

It's a race to the bottom, and unnecessary. As I say, many tube lines "cart fresh air" to their extremeties. Would TfL be justified in slowly closing those bits down too, until eventually the Bakerloo starts at Baker Street and ends at Waterloo, closing at 8pm?

It's a system, and if parts are suboptimal look to improve them to improve the system.

Finishing that particular line to the nearest interchange, Helsby with its much improved connections, would help matters no end, and would hardly cost the earth.

I agree what is the point making passengers life more awkward by making Ellesmere Port passengers change at Hooton, seems like going backwards to me. Ellesmere Port is a pretty large town, you have Cheshire Oaks there which would benefit massively to having a station. Plus extending the Merseyrail to Helsby with its onward connections and giving Ince and Elton a usable service would be the most logical steps forwards.

 

[Ianno87]

It could be argued that not opening crossings to road users would INCREASE safety!

'fraid not.

More closure time means more risk of crossing abuse.

And the very act of running more trains increases the number of theoretical passengers exposed to the risk of a crossing accident each day (what is known as "collective risk")

I agree what is the point making passengers life more awkward by making Ellesmere Port passengers change at Hooton, seems like going backwards to me.

Not if it were a viable way of increasing from 2 to 4 trains per hour. Otherwise very little prospect of it ever being viable I'd suggest

 

[Statto]

Having Ellesmere Port trains operating through the loop helps spread the loadings out from Chester branch, i'm sure there are passengers who will allow Chester train to depart & wait for the Ellesmere Port train with more of a chance to get a seat if they time it right

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could be argued that not opening crossings to road users would INCREASE safety!

Well, yes, but that's not much use if you need to get to the other side!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having Ellesmere Port trains operating through the loop helps spread the loadings out from Chester branch, i'm sure there are passengers who will allow Chester train to depart & wait for the Ellesmere Port train with more of a chance to get a seat if they time it right

I did wonder if people would plan to do that - I certainly plan to use trains that originate at MKC or Bletchley when going to London, so it makes sense.

 

[Statto]

I did wonder if people would plan to do that - I certainly plan to use trains that originate at MKC or Bletchley when going to London, so it makes sense.

I certainly would, although i live near another branch of the Wirral Line, when i go for a day out & get the bus to one of the stations between Birkenhead Central & Eastham Rake i would try & time a connection to an Ellesmere Port train, waiting an extra 7 to 8 minutes doesn't matter too much to me if the weather is not too bad

 

[Old Yard Dog]

As I see it:

-Electrification to Ellesmere Port was justifed by BR on the grounds that it would support 4tph north of Hooton, with 2tph to Chester and 2tph to EP

Don't forget, electrification to Ellesmere Port was part funded by Ellesmere Port & Neston and Cheshire County councils before these were merged into a unitary authority.

They did this so services to Ellesmere Port would be improved not worsened.

2 tph to Liverpool, 7 days a week including evenings, is far preferable to a 4 tph shuttle to Hooton (which would soon be reduced to 2 tph evenings and Sundays and maybe even off peak).

I am pro-rail and believe that rail services should be designed first and foremost for the convenience of passengers rather than the convenience of the TOCs. I lament the decline in the range of through workings in recent years, e.g. by CrossCountry, by the likely splitting of Liverpool - Norwich trains at Nottingham, by the curtailment of Milton Keynes - Gatwick services at East Croydon and by the double splitting of Crewe - Skegness services at Derby and Nottingham. And nobody seems to be even talking about using the Heathrow Western link to provide through trains to the midlands and north.

 

[Ianno87]

Don't forget, electrification to Ellesmere Port was part funded by Ellesmere Port & Neston and Cheshire County councils before these were merged into a unitary authority.

They did this so services to Ellesmere Port would be improved not worsened.

2 tph to Liverpool, 7 days a week including evenings, is far preferable to a 4 tph shuttle to Hooton (which would soon be reduced to 2 tph evenings and Sundays and maybe even off peak).

I am pro-rail and believe that rail services should be designed first and foremost for the convenience of passengers rather than the convenience of the TOCs. I lament the decline in the range of through workings in recent years, e.g. by CrossCountry, by the likely splitting of Liverpool - Norwich trains at Nottingham, by the curtailment of Milton Keynes - Gatwick services at East Croydon and by the double splitting of Crewe - Skegness services at Derby and Nottingham. And nobody seems to be even talking about using the Heathrow Western link to provide through trains to the midlands and north.

4tph is more convenient for passengers than 2tph, moving from needing to look at a timetable to turn up and go. Demand will respond positively to it. Put it this way, how many people *don't* use the current EP service because it is only half-hourly? 4tph puts it in line with the rest of Merseyrail.

All of the examples you give have good justification behind them, not to be simply dismissed as "convenience of the TOCs" - they are all for a greater good to benefit more people overall, e.g better targeting of resources to meet the majority of demand rather than being designed around minority through flows.

 

[bramling]

4tph is more convenient for passengers than 2tph, moving from needing to look at a timetable to turn up and go. Demand will respond positively to it. Put it this way, how many people *don't* use the current EP service because it is only half-hourly? 4tph puts it in line with the rest of Merseyrail.

But would you not run the risk of introducing a disincentive in the form of having to change at Hooton both on the way in to Liverpool and again on the way home, and furthermore having to join a potentially crowded train having originated from Chester? Plus all the usual issues over whether connections should be maintained during disruptions.

Personally I’d go with the present half-hourly service, which seems to satisfy most needs pretty well. A half-hourly service is pretty good even by south-east standards.

Also without looking at timings it seems a little optimistic to be able to fit a 4tph shuttle service to EP with just one train, if that’s what’s being suggested (apologies if I’ve misread things).

 

[paddyb6]

I live on the Chester and Ellesmere Port line, the Leaf Fall timetable is absolutely beyond stupid. Arriving at Rock Ferry 5 min early is a regular occurrence, sat at Birkenhead Central for another 3 mins really adds up into a quite slow journey, then going south sat outside Chester for 5 mins isn't good. Ideally, another platform could be used at Chester but I can't see that happening soon.
Also, the Ellesmere Port trains are much quieter to Liverpool and around Port Sunlight, on a Chester to Liverpool you are lucky to get a seat, whereas on a Ellesmere Port you are virtually guaranteed a seat.