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Chester - Liverpool Merseyrail Services

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Statto

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2tph on Chester branch is utterly inadequate, in normal times Chester trains are heaving with 4tph, also as i've said Ellesmere Port branch using the loop eases pressure of Chester trains for those going Liverpool/Birkenhead-Hooton
 
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paddyb6

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2tph on Chester branch is utterly inadequate, in normal times Chester trains are heaving with 4tph, also as i've said Ellesmere Port branch using the loop eases pressure of Chester trains for those going Liverpool/Birkenhead-Hooton

100% Agreed. Exactly. Even off peak Chester is busy so EP trains provide additional capacity
 

Ianno87

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But would you not run the risk of introducing a disincentive in the form of having to change at Hooton both on the way in to Liverpool and again on the way home, and furthermore having to join a potentially crowded train having originated from Chester? Plus all the usual issues over whether connections should be maintained during disruptions.

Personally I’d go with the present half-hourly service, which seems to satisfy most needs pretty well. A half-hourly service is pretty good even by south-east standards.

Also without looking at timings it seems a little optimistic to be able to fit a 4tph shuttle service to EP with just one train, if that’s what’s being suggested (apologies if I’ve misread things).

Suggesting 4tph using 2 trains on the shuttle.

But what I've said all along is that now
6tph north of Hooton is so established, there's no chance of EP shuttles now.

If History could be re-written, something different and more widely beneficial could have been done is my point.
 

paddyb6

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Suggesting 4tph using 2 trains on the shuttle.

The Shuttle from HOO-ELP works well with one unit at 2tph. Never been busy when the shuttle was used, so 1 unit at every 30 min is perfectly adequate.
 

bramling

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Suggesting 4tph using 2 trains on the shuttle.

But what I've said all along is that now
6tph north of Hooton is so established, there's no chance of EP shuttles now.

If History could be re-written, something different and more widely beneficial could have been done is my point.

I really think this is a solution looking for a problem that’s not really there. The 6tph seems to work well (is it not 8tph in the peaks anyway?), in a perfect world it would perhaps be more beneficial finding a way to run a limited-stop service from Chester given how many people make end-to-end journeys. I realise that’s opening a whole new can of worms!

With crews being based at Birkenhead Central AIUI, having two shuttle trains would require a fair bit of “on the cushions” mileage for crews, almost getting to the point where you might as well just run a service through from Liverpool.

If you did cut back the Hooton to Liverpool service to 4 tph then with normal loadings even off-peak you’d probable be needing 6-car trains. Now introduced quite a bit of unit mileage as well as causing people to have to get wet changing at Hooton!

I must admit I just can’t see a case for going beyond EP, neat though it looks on paper. Helsby is already a fairly quiet station and has a decent service to Liverpool (even more decent now the Halton Curve is being used again). So we’re down to Ince & Elton journeys plus anyone doing Helsby to Birkenhead. Is that enough to justify an extra train, set of crews, a few miles of third rail and an extra substation (and possibly resignalling)?
 

markymark2000

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FWIW carting fresh air to the ends of tube lines is a huge source of inefficiency for TfL. E.g..No way does Cockfosters need ~18tph. It is simply the lack of robust turnbacks along the way (other than the 6tph turned at Arnos Grove) that prevent the service being thinned out more (given that ~24tph is absolutely essential in Zome 1)
Combine that with the stabling points, The depots can be at the extreme ends of lines and therefore if you don't run trains that far, you also struggle to get staff back 'home' and get trains stabled overnight.

I live on the Chester and Ellesmere Port line, the Leaf Fall timetable is absolutely beyond stupid. Arriving at Rock Ferry 5 min early is a regular occurrence, sat at Birkenhead Central for another 3 mins really adds up into a quite slow journey, then going south sat outside Chester for 5 mins isn't good. Ideally, another platform could be used at Chester but I can't see that happening soon.
Also, the Ellesmere Port trains are much quieter to Liverpool and around Port Sunlight, on a Chester to Liverpool you are lucky to get a seat, whereas on a Ellesmere Port you are virtually guaranteed a seat.
100% agree with this. It often puts me off using Merseyrail. I appreciate leaf fall might need some extra time but they have put so much padding into the timetable that you are often early. Chester doesn't need another platform, 7B works perfectly when Merseyrail plans their timetables properly.

I really think this is a solution looking for a problem that’s not really there. The 6tph seems to work well (is it not 8tph in the peaks anyway?), in a perfect world it would perhaps be more beneficial finding a way to run a limited-stop service from Chester given how many people make end-to-end journeys. I realise that’s opening a whole new can of worms!
It isn't 8tph in the peaks that I know of. Stays the same through the day at 6tph and reduces to 4 tph at night.



Just to point a few things out, until recently, it was much quicker (and cheaper) to get the bus from Ellesmere Port into Liverpool with the X8 with direct links to Cheshire Oaks which is a big destination for people. Since the change to local buses, it is 10 mins quicker to get the train from Ellesmere Port but it is still cheaper to get the bus and probably more convenient (20 min frequency, pay on board and likely closer to a bus stop than train station). Also, if someone works and gets a weekly ticket, they can just use that for no extra fee. Final benefit is that concessionary passes are valid on the buses but not the trains.

The Ellesmere Port market for passengers is generally to Liverpool where people choose the bus for convenience and cost. Those travelling from anywhere else to Ellesmere Port is 99% looking for Cheshire Oaks and would therefore have to catch a bus anyway so might as well get the bus in the first place. The other 1% are lost.
 

S&CLER

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Combine that with the stabling points, The depots can be at the extreme ends of lines and therefore if you don't run trains that far, you also struggle to get staff back 'home' and get trains stabled overnight.


100% agree with this. It often puts me off using Merseyrail. I appreciate leaf fall might need some extra time but they have put so much padding into the timetable that you are often early. Chester doesn't need another platform, 7B works perfectly when Merseyrail plans their timetables properly.


It isn't 8tph in the peaks that I know of. Stays the same through the day at 6tph and reduces to 4 tph at night.



Just to point a few things out, until recently, it was much quicker (and cheaper) to get the bus from Ellesmere Port into Liverpool with the X8 with direct links to Cheshire Oaks which is a big destination for people. Since the change to local buses, it is 10 mins quicker to get the train from Ellesmere Port but it is still cheaper to get the bus and probably more convenient (20 min frequency, pay on board and likely closer to a bus stop than train station). Also, if someone works and gets a weekly ticket, they can just use that for no extra fee. Final benefit is that concessionary passes are valid on the buses but not the trains.

The Ellesmere Port market for passengers is generally to Liverpool where people choose the bus for convenience and cost. Those travelling from anywhere else to Ellesmere Port is 99% looking for Cheshire Oaks and would therefore have to catch a bus anyway so might as well get the bus in the first place. The other 1% are lost.

Are you sure about the ENCTS pass? My Merseytravel pass takes me to Chester and Ormskirk so presumably also to Ellesmere Port. Or are you referring to Cheshire residents? Presumably they get a bus-only pass. I was once told that in some CH postcodes, you get a pass valid in both England and Wales, but I think this is only for people who live near the border, not E. Port.
 

paddyb6

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100% agree with this. It often puts me off using Merseyrail. I appreciate leaf fall might need some extra time but they have put so much padding into the timetable that you are often early. Chester doesn't need another platform, 7B works perfectly when Merseyrail plans their timetables properly.

Yeah, the normal timetable works fine usually, we can't reduce capacity between Hooton and Liverpool, even need to increase it with extra services e.g. make the 16:03 Moorfields to Hooton an all day service to provide extra capacity and they would easily fit in the gap between the Chesters when there is no EP. Only issue there is turning/timings at Hooton.
 

Ianno87

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Combine that with the stabling points, The depots can be at the extreme ends of lines and therefore if you don't run trains that far, you also struggle to get staff back 'home' and get trains stabled overnight.

Depot locations are driven by available land, which is quite obviously more available in Zone 5/6 than Zone 1. Ideally, the Picc Lines depot would be under Piccadilly Circus!

Operationally, depots near the centre of routes are better. Hence why Crossrail's depot has been designed to be at Old Oak Common. Stabling at/near end termini is relatively sparse in comparison to the size of Old Oak.
 

edwin_m

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Depot locations are driven by available land, which is quite obviously more available in Zone 5/6 than Zone 1. Ideally, the Picc Lines depot would be under Piccadilly Circus!

Operationally, depots near the centre of routes are better. Hence why Crossrail's depot has been designed to be at Old Oak Common. Stabling at/near end termini is relatively sparse in comparison to the size of Old Oak.
There's an operational argument that depots on commuter-type routes should be at the outer ends because most of the trains leaving the depot in the morning will be taking people into the city so will go straight into service, with vice versa applying in the evening. It's also more likely that crews will be living in suburban areas (or at least was before London prices went crazy). But I suspect the cost and difficulty of finding a suitable site outweighs any operational issues.
 

prod_pep

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Six trains per hour has long been talked about for the Southport line. Indeed, I think the Merseyside RUS actually suggested an evenly-spaced 10 minute service between Liverpool and Southport. This is where the extra off-peak capacity is really needed as it is by far the busiest Merseyrail line. By contrast, I'm not convinced Liverpool to Hooton justifies 6 tph off-peak. I'm not suggesting cutting it back now, but the capacity should have gone to the busiest route first.

The PM peak service is 8 trains per hour Liverpool to Hooton, but one problem is the 3 car 17.15 Liverpool Central - Chester is desperately overcrowded while the Hooton and Ellesmere Port services either side of it are nowhere near full. This is where interworking offers an escape route because it would be better in my opinion to sacrifice one of the additional workings to provide a 6 car on this service. I can't see the new trains solving this problem other than adding a bit more standing room.

Another vote for the "avoid Chester trains in favour of Ellesmere Port if possible" here as the loading disparity is significant. I like a bay of seats to myself if possible and you're almost certain to get one on an Ellesmere Port train.

Fully agree the leaf fall timetable is a pain and makes the journey desperately slow.
 

Bletchleyite

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There's an operational argument that depots on commuter-type routes should be at the outer ends because most of the trains leaving the depot in the morning will be taking people into the city so will go straight into service, with vice versa applying in the evening. It's also more likely that crews will be living in suburban areas (or at least was before London prices went crazy). But I suspect the cost and difficulty of finding a suitable site outweighs any operational issues.

Though in the context of Merseyrail that's probably not so relevant because the journeys are short and the service starts at 05bleugh, so all the units are already out by the time commuter flows get anything like big. This isn't the same as longer-run London commuter services where a fair chunk of the early morning peak will be made up by units straight off the depot.
 

Statto

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The problem with interworking, you have an issue somewhere on one branch could be a broken rail, failed unit, trespasser & or suicide with trains having to be delayed or cancelled & the whole line goes up the wall.

Southport does see 6 trains an hour when the open golf is on at Royal Birkdale like a couple of years ago.

I've always felt the Kirkby line trains should continue to Hunts Cross rather than Southport trains, there's often plenty of capacity on the Kirkby line trains, Southport trains are heaving either side of the central Liverpool stations
 

Ianno87

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There's an operational argument that depots on commuter-type routes should be at the outer ends because most of the trains leaving the depot in the morning will be taking people into the city so will go straight into service, with vice versa applying in the evening. It's also more likely that crews will be living in suburban areas (or at least was before London prices went crazy). But I suspect the cost and difficulty of finding a suitable site outweighs any operational issues.

On intensive metro-routes, the service start up is from 0430/0500 or so; so that by the time commuters are boarding at 07xx or 08xx the train they are on in all likelihood is probably on its second or third trip of the day already.

End of route sidings are just useful for firing in the last few trains to make up the full peak service to save unproductive contra-peak moves in amongst the already intensive contra-peak service.
 

Ianno87

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The problem with interworking, you have an issue somewhere on one branch could be a broken rail, failed unit, trespasser & or suicide with trains having to be delayed or cancelled & the whole line goes up the wall.

Southport does see 6 trains an hour when the open golf is on at Royal Birkdale like a couple of years ago.

I've always felt the Kirkby line trains should continue to Hunts Cross rather than Southport trains, there's often plenty of capacity on the Kirkby line trains, Southport trains are heaving either side of the central Liverpool stations

But is there natually more cross-Liverpool demand from the Southport branch, hence the busy-ness both sides? If I lived at, say, Cressington, I think I'd want to head to Formby or Southport as a destination more often than I'd want to Krikby or Ormskirk.

i.e. forcing passengers to change at Central risks crowding the station there instead.
 

prod_pep

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The problem with interworking, you have an issue somewhere on one branch could be a broken rail, failed unit, trespasser & or suicide with trains having to be delayed or cancelled & the whole line goes up the wall.

Yes, absolutely - as I've pointed out earlier in the thread, that is precisely why the Wirral Line branches became self-contained back in 2001. However, demand on the Chester line has increased since then and something needs to be done to help the 17.15 Central - Chester.

But is there natually more cross-Liverpool demand from the Southport branch, hence the busy-ness both sides?

That is the reason the Southport to Hunts Cross services were paired back in the 1980s as I understand it. It was originally Kirkby to Garston. In recent years, strike action, engineering and now COVID-19 have seen the Hunts Cross line paired with Ormskirk and Kirkby at various times.
 

edwin_m

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But is there natually more cross-Liverpool demand from the Southport branch, hence the busy-ness both sides? If I lived at, say, Cressington, I think I'd want to head to Formby or Southport as a destination more often than I'd want to Krikby or Ormskirk.

i.e. forcing passengers to change at Central risks crowding the station there instead.
It also gives the maximum number of Merseyrail passengers direct links to longer-distance services at South Parkway.
 

clagmonster

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However, demand on the Chester line has increased since then and something needs to be done to help the 17.15 Central - Chester.
Could this be done by making the overcrowded 17:15 from Liverpool limited stop from Birkenhead to Hooton, thus moving passengers for the intermediate stations from that train onto the quieter trains either side? I realise it would just catch up the stopper in front, the idea isn't about running a fast Chester per se but to manage the crowds.
 

Ianno87

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Could this be done by making the overcrowded 17:15 from Liverpool limited stop from Birkenhead to Hooton, thus moving passengers for the intermediate stations from that train onto the quieter trains either side? I realise it would just catch up the stopper in front, the idea isn't about running a fast Chester per se but to manage the crowds.

No doubt it'd be an operational nightmare with folks regularly joining in Liverpool without checking the stopping pattern...
 

Bletchleyite

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Could this be done by making the overcrowded 17:15 from Liverpool limited stop from Birkenhead to Hooton, thus moving passengers for the intermediate stations from that train onto the quieter trains either side? I realise it would just catch up the stopper in front, the idea isn't about running a fast Chester per se but to manage the crowds.

Don't let's prat with the Takt, the less consistent it is the less useful it is. Better just to publicise the fact (several South East TOCs publish loading levels of individual trains) and let people choose themselves.
 

Polarbear

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Don't let's prat with the Takt, the less consistent it is the less useful it is. Better just to publicise the fact (several South East TOCs publish loading levels of individual trains) and let people choose themselves.

Agreed. Whilst in an ideal world, some semi-fast services would be welcome on the longer Merseyrail routes, just having the occasional service that omits stops will only cause problems.

If money were no object, reinstating some four track between Hooton & Rock Ferry would allow at least some Chester services to operate semi-fast.
 

Bletchleyite

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If money were no object, reinstating some four track between Hooton & Rock Ferry would allow at least some Chester services to operate semi-fast.

Yes, that might make some sense (though there's now the TfW service if you want to do Liverpool-Chester quicker) but Merseyrail demonstrates the benefits of a consistent, simple, all day Takt (you basically have to remember one number and be able to add multiples of 15 to it and it gives you the entire timetable including connections, pretty much) and I would not be in support of anything that weakened that.

The one thing I'd possibly concede to would be a few semifast peak extras as the Swiss do (the land of the Takt :) ) but I would only support these if they could be wholly overlaid, i.e. they didn't require any adjustment whatsoever to the base Takt, not even a minute here or there. This might work by sending them out 1 minute in front of the "base" service. But then if you're going to do that (which means you've got a spare unit to do it) you might as well just couple them together and run a 6/8 car service instead.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Would this be so bad, though, if the station was rebuilt with a central bay on an island (and doors opened on both sides) making it cross-platform both ways?
Doors opening both sides might be an issue on a 3rd rail line, unless the 777s have the same extending steps that the Anglian Stadler units have. It would still potentially increase the risk of trap & drag incidents too.
 

frodshamfella

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Yes, that might make some sense (though there's now the TfW service if you want to do Liverpool-Chester quicker) but Merseyrail demonstrates the benefits of a consistent, simple, all day Takt (you basically have to remember one number and be able to add multiples of 15 to it and it gives you the entire timetable including connections, pretty much) and I would not be in support of anything that weakened that.

The one thing I'd possibly concede to would be a few semifast peak extras as the Swiss do (the land of the Takt :) ) but I would only support these if they could be wholly overlaid, i.e. they didn't require any adjustment whatsoever to the base Takt, not even a minute here or there. This might work by sending them out 1 minute in front of the "base" service. But then if you're going to do that (which means you've got a spare unit to do it) you might as well just couple them together and run a 6/8 car service instead.

Until Corvid19 Liverpool to Chester via Halton Curve usage was growing nicely.
 

markymark2000

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Until Corvid19 Liverpool to Chester via Halton Curve usage was growing nicely.
I was surprised by how quickly it had picked up. I certainly prefer it to Merseyrail because it's more scenic and it feels faster with you not stopping every 30 seconds. Much more interesting sights. I do wish the Saveaway was valid on it, even if it was sold as a Saveaway + TFW via Runcorn as then I would use it a lot more. When going on a Saveaway day in Merseyside, I am stuck and have to use Merseyrail.
 

thecraftybee

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Can trains from the Northern lines cross over to the Wirral lines?
Rather than ending in Central, can say the Ormskirk train break into the loop and head off to Chester whilst the Kirkby train go on to Ellesmere Port?
 
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