Chester - Liverpool Merseyrail Services

[markymark2000]

Can trains from the Northern lines cross over to the Wirral lines?
Rather than ending in Central, can say the Ormskirk train break into the loop and head off to Chester whilst the Kirkby train go on to Ellesmere Port?

Not without reversing at Central. There is the Stock Interchange line between James Street and Northern Line at Liv Central.

 

[Ianno87]

Can trains from the Northern lines cross over to the Wirral lines?
Rather than ending in Central, can say the Ormskirk train break into the loop and head off to Chester whilst the Kirkby train go on to Ellesmere Port?

There is a single track Stock Transfer line that connects James Street on the Wirral Line (pointing towards the Wirral) and Central on the Northern Line (pointing towards Hunts Cross.


Too low capacity to be used for a regular service, plus requires reversal at Central for through working from Kirkby/Ormskirk.

Plus Lime Street direct link would be lost from the Chester/Ellesmere Port (far more useful than through running somewhere else)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can trains from the Northern lines cross over to the Wirral lines?
Rather than ending in Central, can say the Ormskirk train break into the loop and head off to Chester whilst the Kirkby train go on to Ellesmere Port?

There is the stock interchange line, but I'm not sure why on earth you'd want to complicate the system like that? Its strength is its simplicity.

 

[prod_pep]

There is also a great deal more through traffic on the currently combined Southport and Hunts Cross routes than there would be by bolting Hunts Cross onto the Chester line.

 

[Statto]

Trains operate ECS all the time from Kirkdale depot to & from the Wirral lines, most use the siding just beyond Central station to turn around, that line used for ECS movements used to be the old part of the Wirral line from Central to James Street before reconstruction of Merseyrail in liverpool city centre in the 70s, the single line was kept so units can swap over between lines.

 

[frodshamfella]

And will boom when eventually through services to North Wales and Shrewsbury/Cardiff are introduced

Yes will prove v useful.

 

[frodshamfella]

I was surprised by how quickly it had picked up. I certainly prefer it to Merseyrail because it's more scenic and it feels faster with you not stopping every 30 seconds. Much more interesting sights. I do wish the Saveaway was valid on it, even if it was sold as a Saveaway + TFW via Runcorn as then I would use it a lot more. When going on a Saveaway day in Merseyside, I am stuck and have to use Merseyrail.

Maybe it's something that might happen in the future. For me from Frodsham to get to the city centre it is so handy, and the fare is pretty good.

 

[gnolife]

Can trains from the Northern lines cross over to the Wirral lines?
Rather than ending in Central, can say the Ormskirk train break into the loop and head off to Chester whilst the Kirkby train go on to Ellesmere Port?

THe junction points the wrong way at Central, so any service from Sandhills or beyond would have to reverse at Central anyway.

 

[8H]

It’s not a Liverpool Chester tram route although it has been behaving like one since March 6th 1967. It is the GWR/LNWR main line from Birkenhead to Paddington via Chester & Shrewsbury. if you understand the history you can understand what it’s future ought to be as easily the fastest route from either side of the Mersey to Chester and North Wales. Four tracks from Rock Ferry to Ledsham could be partially reinstated to smash the current trundling journey times available on this or any alternative route. This route has big potential to achieve modal shift in journeys between Chester North Wales & Merseyside.

 

[Camden]

It’s not a Liverpool Chester tram route although it has been behaving like one since March 6th 1967. It is the GWR/LNWR main line from Birkenhead to Paddington via Chester & Shrewsbury. if you understand the history you can understand what it’s future ought to be as easily the fastest route from either side of the Mersey to Chester and North Wales. Four tracks from Rock Ferry to Ledsham could be partially reinstated to smash the current trundling journey times available on this or any alternative route. This route has big potential to achieve modal shift in journeys between Chester North Wales & Merseyside.

No one is even saying they want that let alone looking into it. The government needed backing into a corner just to allow a few million to be spent on opening up the other route. There's zero chance of this ever happening, so the potential is also nil.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not a Liverpool Chester tram route although it has been behaving like one since March 6th 1967. It is the GWR/LNWR main line from Birkenhead to Paddington via Chester & Shrewsbury. if you understand the history you can understand what it’s future ought to be as easily the fastest route from either side of the Mersey to Chester and North Wales. Four tracks from Rock Ferry to Ledsham could be partially reinstated to smash the current trundling journey times available on this or any alternative route. This route has big potential to achieve modal shift in journeys between Chester North Wales & Merseyside.

The history doesn't have any bearing on what it is now or what it should be. It is extremely effective as it is, and confusing the wonderfully simple Merseyrail with multiple stopping patterns is just not the right thing to do in my eyes.

The Ormskirk branch is the traditional Liverpool-Scotland mainline - would you propose it should be again, when running via St Helens and Wigan is now that?

If you want a faster Liverpool-Chester service there's now the Halton Curve, use that.

 

[Vinnym]

If you want a faster Liverpool-Chester service there's now the Halton Curve, use that.

I think if you check the timetables it is marginally quicker Liverpool Lime Street - Chester using Merseyrail

 

[Llandudno]

If you want a faster Liverpool-Chester service there's now the Halton Curve, use that.

I think if you check the timetables it is marginally quicker Liverpool Lime Street - Chester using Merseyrail

Yep it has toilets on board and the train doesn’t smell of stale burgers/kebabs etc..

 

[8H]

it is a fact that the Halton Curve is a useful addition, another fact is that it could never be as quick as a Birkenhead route semi fast to Chester and beyond. The Halton curve isn’t nor ever was “fast”

Nobody disputes the fact that Merseyrail is relatively simple and successful, however the idea that it is so fragile that you could never ever innovate seems a bit simplistic.

I deliberately referred as I stated earlier to the history of the Birkenhead route to indicate future opportunity.

Another noticeable additional fact is that there is a a thread of opinion within this thread that everywhere across what used to be “Merseyside” for anything other than slow trundle local journeys can ever only be served from Lime Street. That is wrong too.

 

[Vinnym]

Yep it has toilets on board and the train doesn’t smell of stale burgers/kebabs etc..

Yes you are right about the toilets, but Merseyrail run a 15 min service, whereas TfW hourly. Merseyrail trains are a bit dated but I have never witnessed the aromas you are talking about. Perhaps you could be right if travelling late at night, which I never do.
My previous post was a reply to Bletchleyite and was only about journey time, nothing to do with toilets or aromas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep it has toilets on board and the train doesn’t smell of stale burgers/kebabs etc..

And you can see out of the windows (except the steamed up ones) because when designing the unit someone didn't come up with about the most stupid seating layout possible in which absolutely no seats whatsoever are properly aligned?

 

[Eccles1983]

The Halton curve is potentially and usually faster.

I know what the timetables say, but a clear run from Runcorn on the fast gets you in 3-5 mins quicker than advertised.

 

[Camden]

it is a fact that the Halton Curve is a useful addition, another fact is that it could never be as quick as a Birkenhead route semi fast to Chester and beyond. The Halton curve isn’t nor ever was “fast”

Nobody disputes the fact that Merseyrail is relatively simple and successful, however the idea that it is so fragile that you could never ever innovate seems a bit simplistic.

I deliberately referred as I stated earlier to the history of the Birkenhead route to indicate future opportunity.

The absence of the idea from any official local ambitions, in tandem with the city region being semi-permanently out of favour with the civil servants and associated quangos and therefore facing an uphill battle for even small amounts of funding, though, renders the concept dead on arrival.

 

[Ianno87]

it is a fact that the Halton Curve is a useful addition, another fact is that it could never be as quick as a Birkenhead route semi fast to Chester and beyond. The Halton curve isn’t nor ever was “fast”

Nobody disputes the fact that Merseyrail is relatively simple and successful, however the idea that it is so fragile that you could never ever innovate seems a bit simplistic.

To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if the new stock capability makes a reasonable dent in the journey time, particularly for longer runs from Chester and Southport.

 

[Polarbear]

The absence of the idea from any official local ambitions, in tandem with the city region being semi-permanently out of favour with the civil servants and associated quangos and therefore facing an uphill battle for even small amounts of funding, though, renders the concept dead on arrival.

I suspect Merseyrail have a reasonable share of the Chester - Liverpool market in any case. Buses can't compete on journey time & the express route that did operate (service X8) was eventually withdrawn as Stagecoach couldn't make it pay. The only real competition is the private car, but given tunnel tolls & expensive city centre car parking in Liverpool, that's not a realistic option for many people.

I used to commute from Bache to Liverpool for several years & whilst a faster journey would have been a "nice to have", it can't happen unless extra infrastructure is put in place. As Camden and others have said, it's not on anyone's radar & much as I may like to have had a faster commute, I can't see the investment in partially four-tracking the Hooton - Rock Ferry section ever being recouped.

Whilst the line was quadruple between Rock Ferry & just south of Ledsham, it wouldn't be easy to re-instate some of this as the use of the formation has been changed over the years. Namely;

• Twin track slewed between Rock Ferry & Bebington to eliminate drainage issues
• Car park on formation at Bebington station
• Stations at Port Sunlight, Bromborough Rake & Eastham Rake would need to be rebuilt. Alterations needed at Bromborough where an access ramp has been built over the old formation.
• Part of the formation south of Port Sunlight is occupied by a car dealership.

Can't see it happening any time soon.

Iannno87 wrote;

To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if the new stock capability makes a reasonable dent in the journey time, particularly for longer runs from Chester and Southport.

I think the time savings are about 4 minutes for Chester - Liverpool & 6 minutes for Southport - Liverpool

 

[frodshamfella]

The Halton curve is potentially and usually faster.

I know what the timetables say, but a clear run from Runcorn on the fast gets you in 3-5 mins quicker than advertised.

Its also serving two other stations that had no direct link to the city centre and its handy for passengers to reach Liverpool Airport. Once it the service runs further into Wales it will really show its worth.

 

[edwin_m]

Whilst the line was quadruple between Rock Ferry & just south of Ledsham, it wouldn't be easy to re-instate some of this as the use of the formation has been changed over the years. Namely;

• Twin track slewed between Rock Ferry & Bebington to eliminate drainage issues
• Car park on formation at Bebington station
• Stations at Port Sunlight, Bromborough Rake & Eastham Rake would need to be rebuilt. Alterations needed at Bromborough where an access ramp has been built over the old formation.
• Part of the formation south of Port Sunlight is occupied by a car dealership

I think also the A550 bridge at the Ledsham station site is only large enough for double track.

 

[Ianno87]

Iannno87 wrote;

To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if the new stock capability makes a reasonable dent in the journey time, particularly for longer runs from Chester and Southport.

I think the time savings are about 4 minutes for Chester - Liverpool & 6 minutes for Southport - Liverpool

So about 10% reduction for Chester, 12.5% or so for Southport, which is pretty respectable just by changing the rolling stock. Shows that expensive infrastructure does not always have to be the solution to a problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So about 10% reduction for Chester, 12.5% or so for Southport, which is pretty respectable just by changing the rolling stock. Shows that expensive infrastructure does not always have to be the solution to a problem.

I'd be interested to know if any power upgrades will be needed - the S-stock for instance is "throttled" because if it "took off" like it could the power supply couldn't cope.

 

[Camden]

I'd be interested to know if any power upgrades will be needed - the S-stock for instance is "throttled" because if it "took off" like it could the power supply couldn't cope.

750v S stock being throttled was due to being in a shared environment with the older stock that ran at 630v. Once the older stock left, the power and speed could then go up. Same will happen for the Merseyrail on the speed front, but I expect any power upgrades wouldn't be as significant.

 

[jamesst]

I'd be interested to know if any power upgrades will be needed - the S-stock for instance is "throttled" because if it "took off" like it could the power supply couldn't cope.

Pretty much every sub station on the merseyrail network has been/is being upgraded, some of them quite substantially.

 

[Lloyds siding]

When the trains to Chester skip stops to regain time...I've been on one that was non stop to Chester after Hamilton Square...then the service can be very quick!