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Child Flat Fare Return (Southeastern)

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Felix A

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I have an off peak return ticket labeled CHILD FLAT FARE RETURN from Dartford to Tonbridge not via London Terminals that I bought off Raileasy Ticket Split for £1. Am I allowed to use these without being accompanied and if I'm not will I be able to get my money back from Raileasy? (I am under 16 incase this was an area of concern for anyone)

Thanks in advance,
Felix A
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I have an off peak return ticket labeled CHILD FLAT FARE RETURN from Dartford to Tonbridge not via London Terminals that I bought off Raileasy Ticket Split for £1. Am I allowed to use these without being accompanied and if I'm not will I be able to get my money back from Raileasy? (I am under 16 incase this was an area of concern for anyone)

Thanks in advance,
Felix A
Did you buy this ticket on its own? Did you declare that you were travelling with an adult?
 
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I may be wrong but i am pretty sure that these are only valid when travelling accompanied by an Adult who has an Adult ticket.
 

Haywain

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I have an off peak return ticket labeled CHILD FLAT FARE RETURN from Dartford to Tonbridge not via London Terminals that I bought off Raileasy Ticket Split for £1. Am I allowed to use these without being accompanied and if I'm not will I be able to get my money back from Raileasy? (I am under 16 incase this was an area of concern for anyone)

Thanks in advance,
Felix A
These tickets are only valid for children accompanied by an adult ticket (or pass) holder.
 

Paul Kelly

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There doesn't appear to be anything in the fares data to say that these fares can only be bought when accompanied by an adult and unlike other such tickets with unusual restrictions (e.g. online-only off-peak single/Saver Half) that require special hacks to journey planners to sell them, there is no other ban on selling them in the data. Southeastern should really put something in the fares data to block them being sold as normal tickets, if it doesn't want that to happen.
 
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What does the printed ticket look like? Is there anything printed on the ticket to say that you have to be accompanied by an Adult ticket holder to use it?
 

Haywain

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There doesn't appear to be anything in the fares data to say that these fares can only be bought when accompanied by an adult and unlike other such tickets with unusual restrictions (e.g. online-only off-peak single/Saver Half) that require special hacks to journey planners to sell them, there is no other ban on selling them in the data. Southeastern should really put something in the fares data to block them being sold as normal tickets, if it doesn't want that to happen.
The information in Knowledgebase reads as follows:
Knowledgebase said:
Valid only for accompanied children with an adult holding a valid journey or Season Ticket or a valid pass. The ticket is only valid for off-peak travel according to the time-of-day restrictions applicable to the adult off-peak ticket. It is not valid for use with off-peak day Travelcards.

The Kids for a Quid ticket will carry the same time restrictions as per the adult ticket. Travel must be made on the date shown on the ticket.
This does, at least, make the intentions clear.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I have an off peak return ticket (...) that I bought off Raileasy Ticket Split for £1. Am I allowed to use these without being accompanied and if I'm not will I be able to get my money back from Raileasy?

In terms of getting your money back, you might want to think about the cost versus benefit of trying to claim a refund. In other words, is it worth the hassle for a quid?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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In terms of getting your money back, you might want to think about the cost versus benefit of trying to claim a refund. In other words, is it worth the hassle for a quid?
I think that is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. The ticket is valid as it is - there is no indication when buying the ticket that it intended to be used in conjunction with an accompanying adult who holds a season ticket or pass. Indeed, the name "Kids for a Quid" indicates that the £1.00 is not an error.

To the OP, from my own searches on the TrainSplit/RailEasy site I think you would have a strong case if Southeastern tried to charge you anything extra or denied you travel.
 

alistairlees

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There doesn't appear to be anything in the fares data to say that these fares can only be bought when accompanied by an adult and unlike other such tickets with unusual restrictions (e.g. online-only off-peak single/Saver Half) that require special hacks to journey planners to sell them, there is no other ban on selling them in the data. Southeastern should really put something in the fares data to block them being sold as normal tickets, if it doesn't want that to happen.
These tickets should only be sold with certain adult ticket types and only for journeys where the whole of the journey is on southeastern.

I agree that this is not supported in the fares data. And, in fact, it can’t be - journey planners have to hack this in, and are expected to do so if they wish to retail it.

There are other tickets like this where the retailing requirement cannot be supported in the fares data. The family travelcard on some flows is an example.
 

alistairlees

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I think that is entirely the wrong way of looking at it. The ticket is valid as it is - there is no indication when buying the ticket that it intended to be used in conjunction with an accompanying adult who holds a season ticket or pass. Indeed, the name "Kids for a Quid" indicates that the £1.00 is not an error.

To the OP, from my own searches on the TrainSplit/RailEasy site I think you would have a strong case if Southeastern tried to charge you anything extra or denied you travel.
The ticket is not valid and Raileasy have incorrectly retailed it. If you travel with it without an adult with the a ticket with the same or greater validity you will most likely be challenged and charged s full fare.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The ticket is not valid and Raileasy have incorrectly retailed it. If you travel with it without an adult with the a ticket with the same or greater validity you will most likely be challenged and charged s full fare.
It might not be intended to be valid, but in good faith the OP has paid TrainSplit to buy a ticket entitling him to travel from A to B as a child travelling alone. It would be a breach of contract for Southeastern to charge anything extra, as the ticket is contractually valid - it has been bought on the basis of its validity for a child travelling alone. It is no different to any other kind of retailing error - the ticket is valid and must be accepted as such. The fact that the fare is entitled Kids for a Quid clearly shows that the price is not an error, and in any case, £1.00 is sufficient consideration for a binding contract to be formed.

TrainSplit promises good customer service and no doubt they will be happy to assist OP in taking the matter further if Southeastern make any difficulties during or after travel.
 

alistairlees

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The OP is likely to encounter difficulties travelling. Better advice to be the OP would be to seek a refund from the retailer now that it is clear that the ticket isn’t valid and to ask the retailer to sell a correctly valid ticket instead. The retailer will I am sure be willing to help.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The OP is likely to encounter difficulties travelling. Better advice to be the OP would be to seek a refund from the retailer now that it is clear that the ticket isn’t valid and to ask the retailer to sell a correctly valid ticket instead. The retailer will I am sure be willing to help.
It's up to the OP as to whether they wish to enforce the contract that has been made, or whether they wish to pay more to get the same rights. The ticket certainly is valid contractually, it is just that Southeastern may not intend it to be valid on its own.

Only in the ludicrous world of TOCs is it considered the optimal solution for the innocent party to pay more because the party in breach (the TOC) doesn't feel like honouring the contract that has been made...
 

Felix A

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There doesn't appear to be anything in the fares data to say that these fares can only be bought when accompanied by an adult and unlike other such tickets with unusual restrictions (e.g. online-only off-peak single/Saver Half) that require special hacks to journey planners to sell them, there is no other ban on selling them in the data. Southeastern should really put something in the fares data to block them being sold as normal tickets, if it doesn't want that to happen.
The ticket says it has restriction B1 which mentions nothing of accompaniement.
 

Felix A

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Only in the ludicrous world of TOCs is it considered the optimal solution for the innocent party to pay more because the party in breach (the TOC) doesn't feel like honouring the contract that has been made...
Haha too true though.
 
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I doubt you would have any problems using that ticket. It doesn't say anywhere on it that you have to be accompanied by an Adult to use it. I imagine that most staff probably wouldn't notice or even know about this and would just accept it as an ordinary Child ticket.
 

Daz28

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This is more than a retailing issue.

The conditions make it hard to prevent it being retailed inappropriately. It is valid with an adult travelling on a season ticket for example, so buying this ticket on its own is perfectly valid. Even if sold with an adult ticket, there is nothing to prevent the adult and child travelling separately.

The issue is that the ticket has conditions attached to it that are not documented as a restriction, and hence there is no way of enforcing that customers are informed of the conditions at the point of sale.

Easily solved, create a restriction code SEKIDS, document that it is only valid for off-peak travel when accompanied by a fare paying or season ticket holding adult, and well programmed journey planners and TVMs will display the restriction before selling. Won’t completely eradicate inappropriate selling, but at least the customer has a fighting chance of getting the right ticket.
 

Felix A

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Easily solved, create a restriction code SEKIDS, document that it is only valid for off-peak travel when accompanied by a fare paying or season ticket holding adult, and well programmed journey planners and TVMs will display the restriction before selling. Won’t completely eradicate inappropriate selling, but at least the customer has a fighting chance of getting the right ticket.
I mean if it is valid it would be nice if they don't rid it so I can have extremely cheap travel for the next year (I know depressing one more year of child fares :( )

As a side note, if I decide to use these tickets, are there any documents that would be useful to carry around?
 

alistairlees

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I mean if it is valid it would be nice if they don't rid it so I can have extremely cheap travel for the next year (I know depressing one more year of child fares :( )
It's not valid. You'll get stopped by anyone checking your ticket properly. And asked to pay a child fare at least. I'm trying to save you quite a bit of potential hassle here. It may be the case that you have a contract owing to having purchased it from an accredited retailer, but that is unlikely to stop someone from telling you it's not valid by itself.

As a side note, if I decide to use these tickets, are there any documents that would be useful to carry around?
An adult (with a valid ticket).
 

alistairlees

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I doubt you would have any problems using that ticket. It doesn't say anywhere on it that you have to be accompanied by an Adult to use it. I imagine that most staff probably wouldn't notice or even know about this and would just accept it as an ordinary Child ticket.
I think most staff on SE will know about this one.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I mean if it is valid it would be nice if they don't rid it so I can have extremely cheap travel for the next year (I know depressing one more year of child fares :( )

As a side note, if I decide to use these tickets, are there any documents that would be useful to carry around?
I don't think there's much you could really carry that would be of use other than perhaps a law textbook to hit them round the head with if they don't understand the concept of a binding contract (actually, don't do that :lol:).

Other areas are perfectly capable of selling these tickets correctly, by using the restriction code to detail the intended use of the ticket. The fact that Southeastern haven't bothered to is, frankly, their problem - but now the issue has been raised here you can definitely expect it to be fixed, pronto. Best buy up as many tickets as you think you'll need, before they're gone (or a proper restriction code introduced)!
 

alistairlees

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This is more than a retailing issue.

The conditions make it hard to prevent it being retailed inappropriately.
It's the data structure and the data that cause this

It is valid with an adult travelling on a season ticket for example, so buying this ticket on its own is perfectly valid.
Correct

Even if sold with an adult ticket, there is nothing to prevent the adult and child travelling separately.
Incorrect. The T&Cs of the ticket prevent this.

The issue is that the ticket has conditions attached to it that are not documented as a restriction, and hence there is no way of enforcing that customers are informed of the conditions at the point of sale.
Partly correct; whilst it's frustrating that these restrictions are not handled in the usual way, it is perfectly possible to encode them. It is an overhead, though.

Easily solved, create a restriction code SEKIDS, document that it is only valid for off-peak travel when accompanied by a fare paying or season ticket holding adult, and well programmed journey planners and TVMs will display the restriction before selling. Won’t completely eradicate inappropriate selling, but at least the customer has a fighting chance of getting the right ticket.
This won't work; there is nothing in the fares data structure to make the retail of one ticket type dependent on another. The fares data structure needs changing.
 

alistairlees

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Other areas are perfectly capable of selling these tickets correctly, by using the restriction code to detail the intended use of the ticket. The fact that Southeastern haven't bothered to is, frankly, their problem - but now the issue has been raised here you can definitely expect it to be fixed, pronto. Best buy up as many tickets as you think you'll need, before they're gone (or a proper restriction code introduced)!
The restriction code does not show how it can be retailed correctly. There's a lot more to it than that to get it right. A hack that isn't based on data, basically.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The restriction code does not show how it can be retailed correctly. There's a lot more to it than that to get it right. A hack that isn't based on data, basically.
Well, other areas don't sell them online, for one. They are only sold at ticket offices (or on-board) - clearly less convenient for travellers, but at least they will only be sold where they are permitted to be used.
 

alistairlees

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Well, other areas don't sell them online, for one. They are only sold at ticket offices (or on-board) - clearly less convenient for travellers, but at least they will only be sold where they are permitted to be used.
This is incorrect; they are sold on the Southeastern website, amongst others.
 

alistairlees

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The terms which the TOC might want to have apply prevent it, but they've done a very poor job indeed in communicating the terms sufficiently as to make them apply.
The terms are made clear on the Southeastern website when you buy them.
 
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