Child received a penalty charge notice on Nexus Metro

[Doofbox]

Hi all,

This is my first post.

My daughter who is 15 was recently served a Penalty Fare when travelling on the Newcastle Metro on a child ticket. The inspector did not believe her age; what child carries their birth certificate or passport with them?
Anyway a £20 fixed penalty fare notice was issued for "Adult travelling on a child ticket" and my daughter was ejected from the train at the next stop at 20:15 on a Saturday night in Newcastle. The ticket inspector took her ticket. As you can imagine, she was utterly distressed. Fortunately she had enough money to buy an adult ticket (as she was too scared to buy a child ticket) to complete her journey. So much for the company having consideration and care for a potentially vulnerable passenger!

So, I completed the necessary appeal through the IRCAS site and uploaded copies of the penalty notice and her birth certificate. My daughter was told by the ticket inspector that this is all that was needed to cancel the penalty fare.

We just received a standard letter from IRCAS stating that the appeal has been rejected! How can this be? She was travelling with a valid ticket and we have proven that she was travelling with a valid ticket. There was no information as to why it was rejected, just a generic letter of rejection.

So what now?

 

[sonic2009]

Doofbox welcome to the forum.

Metro child fare

Valid on:Metro

Children under the age of five travel free on Metro. Under 16 year olds with an Under 16 Pop Card can travel for the concessionary child fare 60p. Children without an Under 16 Pop Card can travel for the commercial child fare.

Metro concessionary child fare Or travel all day on all public transport for just £1.10 with an U16 Child All-day Ticket (U16 CAT). You'll need to show your Under 16 Pop Card to buy a U16 CAT.

If you don't have an Under 16 Pop Card, you'll pay the commercial child fare, which is 70p. However, if you are, or look like you are, 14 or over, you will be charged the adult fare. So if you live in Tyne and Wear and are under 16, apply for your Under 16 Pop Card now to be entitled to pay concessionary child fares.

Children under 5
Accompanied children aged under five travel free on all public transport in Tyne and Wear.

Don’t have an Under 16 Pop Card?
If you're under 16 and don't have an Under 16 Pop Card, you'll pay the commercial child fare of 70p at all times. Or you could buy a Child DaySaver.

Child DaySaver
It’s £1.10 and is valid for any time of the day. It’s available to children aged 15 and under. You may be asked for proof of age.

http://www.nexus.org.uk/metro/tickets

It appears that your daughter looked to be over 14 to the ticket inspector this is why you were given a fixed penalty notice.

I cannot understand why you have been sent a general rejection letter, have you tried giving them a telephone call and explaining the situation?.

It may be worth your Daughter applying for the Pop Card, so you will get her child fares up until the age of 16, and have no hassle again.

The application form is here

 

[duncanp]

According to http://www.nexus.org.uk/metro/guide-metro/Penalty-Fares you have up to 21 days to pay the Penalty Charge Notice.

All the inspector needs to do is take your daughter's name and address (and verify it).

There is no need to eject your daughter from the train unless she was being verbally abusive or violent (which I assume was not the case)

At the bottom of the link I have posted above it says that you can phone the Customer Relations Department on 0191 203 3199 to book an appointment to discuss your complaint in private. I suggest you do this in the first instance.

According to http://www.nexus.org.uk/travel-information/under-16 you can also get an Under 16 card for your daughter. This will prove her age and prevent this situation for happening in future.

 

[yorkie]

So what now?

Depending on the exact nature of where/when she was ejected from the train, it is possible the Company has failed its duty of care obligations, in which case you may wish to seek legal advice, as a successful outcome may well be possible.

 

[maniacmartin]

If you are (or look like you are) 14 or over, you will be charged the adult fare.

I read this as saying if you look like you are over 14, the appropriate fare is the adult one, unless you have the Under 16 Pop Card, even if you are under 16 (or even under 14), thus they were correct to reject your appeal if your daughter looks over 14. I suspect I'm reading it wrong, as that sounds like a stupid rule

 

[LexyBoy]

It sounds like a very dubious rule to me. The opinions of whether someone looks under 14 may vary between those selling and inspecting tickets. And why does this condition not apply to the Child DaySaver?

I also agree with yorkie that kicking her off the train potentially puts Nexus on dodgy ground.

 

[rdwarr]

And who is the judge of what age people look? Surely it's just inviting conversations along the line of:
"Your daughter looks over 14",
"No, she doesn't"

 

[185]

Hi all, Anyway a £20 fixed penalty fare notice was issued for "Adult travelling on a child ticket" and my daughter was ejected from the train at the next stop at 20:15 on a Saturday night in Newcastle. The ticket inspector took her ticket. As you can imagine, she was utterly distressed. Fortunately she had enough money to buy an adult ticket (as she was too scared to buy a child ticket) to complete her journey.

To be fair to the staff, they will probably have left the train with her, as it is likely the details were taken on the platform; I doubt suggesting she was 'ejected' (in the sense of being kicked off, alone) is really a fair statement. If staff have done that in this day and age it would surprise me.

Proving age is a difficult one, but I think in this case it's probably worth writing direct to Nexus, the PTE, who might intervene in the situation for you as long as they are confident the birth certificate represents the person issued the fine -(& filmed on CCTV).

 

[34D]

Proving age is a difficult one, but I think in this case it's probably worth writing direct to Nexus, the PTE, who might intervene in the situation for you as long as they are confident the birth certificate represents the person issued the fine -(& filmed on CCTV).

I would be writing direct to Bernard Garner, Director General, NEXUS.

This is a disgrace (I am referring specifically to the ejection of a 14 year old girl from the train and the confiscation of her ticket).

Regarding the alleged ticketing offence, can you advise this forum whether or not sher had the pop card?

 

[bb21]

However, if you are, or look like you are, 14 or over, you will be charged the adult fare.

I don't think this is legally enforceable. A passenger is either entitled to child fare or not depending on his/her actual age. For the various reasons stated by people before me, how do you judge whether someone looks over 14?

I am unwilling to comment on whether the OP's daughter was left in a vulnerable situation as we do not know what happened exactly. Maybe the details were taken on the platform and the RPI's ensured that she had enough money for onward travel. We have no information in this respect so far.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Maybe the details were taken on the platform and the RPI's ensured that she had enough money for onward travel. ....

If that happened (and I realise we don't know) why would they do that? The net effect would simply be delaying a passenger until the next train, which seems a somewhat mean-spirited "punishment".

 

[bb21]

If that happened (and I realise we don't know) why would they do that? The net effect would simply be delaying a passenger until the next train, which seems a somewhat mean-spirited "punishment".

I don't know. Maybe there were no mobile signals in the tunnels but there were in the stations so that the RPIs could confirm the details? Just a guess.

 

[yorkie]

how do you judge whether someone looks over 14?

It's subjective.

Get 10 random 14 year olds and ask an RPI how old they think they are, chances are the answers might range from 10 to 17.

I find it hard to believe a ticket can be considered valid or not on such a basis, but I am not a lawyer....

 

[Doofbox]

Thanks for the helpful comments. We live in County Durham so my daughter is not eligible for a POP card and the concessionary rate. She purchased a standard child ticket.
I have no issue with her age being queried but am appalled that she told to leave the train at the next station. And yes, she is an intelligent, well-mannered girl so there is no question of her behaviour or manner being a contributing factor. I will be making a formal complaint to NEXUS about the treatment my daughter received.

I have lodged a second appeal with IRCAS. They will only accept this online, you cannot actually speak to a human being about this. so will keep you posted.

To be honest, paying the £20 penalty fare is the path of least resistance but I am not going to let them get away with this.

 

[maniacmartin]

A better way of wording the restriction would have been "If you look like you are aged over 14, you will have to pay the adult fare unless you can produce proof of age such as...."

 

[LexyBoy]

A better way of wording the restriction would have been "If any of our employees who you happen to come across reckons that you look like you are aged over 14, you will have to pay the adult fare unless you can produce proof of age such as...."

Amended

 

[monty9120]

another stupid idea,

no wonder honest people are caught out. every company has different rules. if i went to newcastle and i was with my 15 year old child i wouldnt know either

 

[spacehopper]

ALL passengers not just vulnerable 14 years olds must leave the Metro.

You are not frogmarched or forced off the Metro at point of distress. A team of CSA (Metro RPI) will board the train at a station usually 1 CSA per door and then proceed to check the whole carriage.

Those without tickets (usually quite a few) are then asked to leave the train at the next stop where the CSA will check out the address and issue PF. Once the PF has been verified and issued you are free to continue your journey.

I don't understand why your daughter went and bought an adult ticket? As the PF acts as a permit to travel AFAIK.

Metro- is a DOO system, no ticket offices, no barriers- it is a completely open system. It is not practical to issue a PF on board as there are only minutes between stops. How long do you think it takes to check and issue a PF? Lot longer than a journey between Monument and Haymarket.

Also tend to find that on the platform that there will already be staff in place to deal with PF and sometimes a police presence. This is the practical way they have to deal with PF. Doesn't matter if your a foul mouthed abusive charver or an old granny- you need to leave Metro so they can deal with you.

 

[Yew]

A better way of wording the restriction would have been "If you look like you are aged over 14, you will have to pay the adult fare unless you can produce proof of age such as...."

How many 14 year olds carry proof of age? they wont have a driving liscence, and probably wount have a passport with them in case the lose it.

 

[maniacmartin]

They might have a card with the PASS logo on it though such as a Citizencard

 

[Stigy]

It won't go to Court anyway if they have any sense. Contact the Metro people or whoever they are and bypass IRCAS. There's only so much that can be done to prove a 15-year o;ld's age, and the only downside is that a Birth Certificate obviously had no photo.

I'd consider getting a school head teacher or GP to write a note to back you up.

It is generally up to the person to be able to prove they're travelling legally, but in this instance, no law has clearly been broken, so it WONT go to court, especially given that she is a minor. What date of Birth did the RPI list? seems bizar that he states the reason for the notice was that she was an adult, yet the only DOB is her actual one!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Their might have a card with the PASS logo on it though such as a Citizencard

Might being the key word here.
Certainly I didn't carry any kind of ID on me until I got my provisional driving licence at 17.

 

[exile]

Might being the key word here.
Certainly I didn't carry any kind of ID on me until I got my provisional driving licence at 17.

Citizencards are generally obtained to prove you are OLD enough to do X or Y not to prove you are young enough for a child fare.

However the whole area is a nonsense. How can a ticket seller or RPI tell whether a person is actually under 16 or not? But once a UFN has been issued an appeal based on the person concerned actually being under 16 should succeed.

 

[trainophile]

This makes no sense at all. The young person is 15, child tickets are available for under-16s, and yet you have to look under 14 to avoid a problem . If concessionary fares are available until the age of 16 why not make the rule that you may have to prove your age if you look older than 16?

It's a bit like having to look over 25 to buy alcohol in a supermarket, even though it is perfectly legal for over-18s to buy it.

 

[MikeWh]

It's a bit like having to look over 25 to buy alcohol in a supermarket, even though it is perfectly legal for over-18s to buy it.

Not true! The campaign says that if you look under 25 you may be asked to prove that you are over 18. If you are you will be allowed to buy.

 

[Stigy]

This makes no sense at all. The young person is 15, child tickets are available for under-16s, and yet you have to look under 14 to avoid a problem . If concessionary fares are available until the age of 16 why not make the rule that you may have to prove your age if you look older than 16?

It's a bit like having to look over 25 to buy alcohol in a supermarket, even though it is perfectly legal for over-18s to buy it.

Maybe it's like the whole alcohol situation whereby you usually have to look 25-years old to be sold it without the need for ID, or to not look 25-years old but have to be able to prove you're at least 18-years old to be able to be sold it.

Still no backing in law though in this case.

 

[trainophile]

Points taken re. alcohol rules, apologies for my inaccuracy. However, on the topic of this thread, I really don't understand why *14* comes into it at all. Both boys and girls will probably look quite different at 13 to what they do at 15, and it's unreasonable (and ridiculous) to challenge every 15 year old because they don't appear to be 13.

 

[nedchester]

This is very dodgy and I suspect if you get no joy from Nexus then go to the press. These companies hate bad publicity especially stuff like this.

Stick with it. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Children under the age of five travel free on Metro. Under 16 year olds with an Under 16 Pop Card can travel for the concessionary child fare 60p. Children without an Under 16 Pop Card can travel for the commercial child fare.

If you don't have an Under 16 Pop Card, you'll pay the commercial child fare, which is 70p. However, if you are, or look like you are, 14 or over, you will be charged the adult fare. So if you live in Tyne and Wear and are under 16, apply for your Under 16 Pop Card now to be entitled to pay concessionary child fares.

Sorry if I've missed something here, but isn't everyone concentrating on the "look like" part, much as I agree that's a fairly stupid approach? If you take out that subordinate clause then you are left with:

"However, if you are 14 or over, you will be charged the adult fare."

which seems to be saying that the limit for the so-called commercial fare is actually 14 and not 16. Sounds as if she was genuinely liable for the adult ticket... much as I don't wish to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[maniacmartin]

which seems to be saying that the limit for the so-called commercial fare is actually 14 and not 16. Sounds as if she was genuinely liable for the adult ticket... much as I don't wish to be the bearer of bad news.

But I don't think that's what Nexus intended the phrase to mean.