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Chiltern: Deliberately misinforming passengers about the route.

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xotGD

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Everytime there is a wembley stadium event, short of carriages or ticket acceptance of other operators tickets
So depends how you define often but frequently enough that it happens to my train about 6 times a year
If my train home from work was only cancelled 6 times a year I'd be jumping for joy!

It is common sense that passengers to a more distant destination with an infrequent service should be prioritised over those travelling to the first stop where there are frequent trains.
 
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Kite159

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I've seen it happen on SWR on Sundays where the lines are blocked around Salisbury so it's an hourly Waterloo - Andover service, some which are only a single unit. They are shown as pick-up only for Woking to encourage Woking passengers to use alternative services as some can be cosy
 

bb21

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So you are saying that if a train is no longer advertised to call at all its scheduled stations (as here) then this is counted as a PPM failure?

It isn't an obsession to find the tactics used here improper. Rather than apologising for not being able to provide the required number of carriages, Chiltern resort to lies and misinformation to cover their own backsides. Doesn't seem very apologetic.

If a passenger lies about where they got on to skip a bit of the fare, the TOCs don't take too kindly to that if they find out the truth. Why should passengers not be entitled to be just as annoyed if they discover the TOC has been lying?
Stops cancelled on the day will result in a PPM failure regardless. Pick-up/set-down restrictions will not fail PPM.

What I am saying is you need to put things in perspective. No one is going to look at managing crowds on safety grounds on the basis of PPM. If your default position is to go to conspiracy theory then I cannot continue this discussion with you, because you will always be able to find something to be sceptical about. How many people do you even think understand how PPM work? If as alluded to by the OP this happens a mere single-digit number of occasions in a year, this is going to make no difference to Chiltern's PPM, for all intents and purposes.

Chiltern didn't resort to lies and misinformation. They provided information in the most concise and effective way in directing crowds in a way which fulfils the needs of as many passengers as possible. It is not perfect because there will always be some people who would lose out because it is a balancing game, but we don't live in a perfect world.

You can be as annoyed as you like, but I am sure far more people are much happier as a result of these measures.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Chiltern didn't resort to lies and misinformation.
To use the Cambridge English dictionary, the relevant definition of "lie" is:
To say or write something that is not true in order to deceive someone
In which way are you suggesting that Chiltern's actions in this case (of deliberately omitting an actual calling point on a list of calling points, and instructing staff to say that the train would not be calling at Wycombe) was not consistent with the above definition?

If as alluded to by the OP this happens a mere single-digit number of occasions in a year, this is going to make no difference to Chiltern's PPM, for all intents and purposes.
So passengers who short-fare are doing nothing wrong, if the fare from the station they name is the same as that which they should have paid? And travelling beyond the validity of your ticket is fine as long as the fare to the station you travel to is the same?

Clearly it's one rule for the TOCs and another for us mere mortals.

It's one thing to unilaterally alter the timetable. It's another to lie about what's going on.
 

AM9

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To use the Cambridge English dictionary, the relevant definition of "lie" is:

In which way are you suggesting that Chiltern's actions in this case (of deliberately omitting an actual calling point on a list of calling points, and instructing staff to say that the train would not be calling at Wycombe) was not consistent with the above definition?


So passengers who short-fare are doing nothing wrong, if the fare from the station they name is the same as that which they should have paid? And travelling beyond the validity of your ticket is fine as long as the fare to the station you travel to is the same?

Clearly it's one rule for the TOCs and another for us mere mortals.

It's one thing to unilaterally alter the timetable. It's another to lie about what's going on.
You really must give up this pointless argument. Chiltern were not out to deceive passengers bacause as far as High Wycombe passengers were concerned, the train was indeed not for their use. They are entitled to withdraw availability for operational reasons, - in this case fully justifiably as a normal method of passenger management. Other trains were available to High Wycombe that wouldn't have been suitable for passengers travelling further down the line. Just because that train was normally available, it doesn't entitle passengers to travel on it if it had been announced (or indicated) otherwise. That includes all passengers, whatever the price of the ticket, however regular the passenger travelled, (even self-entitled season ticket holders). The change was to make the best use of a short formed train.
You've been pursuing this argument since last year. It's now 2020, so do try to get over it!
 

ForTheLoveOf

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You really must give up this pointless argument. Chiltern were not out to deceive passengers bacause as far as High Wycombe passengers were concerned, the train was indeed not for their use. They are entitled to withdraw availability for operational reasons, - in this case fully justifiably as a normal method of passenger management. Other trains were available to High Wycombe that wouldn't have been suitable for passengers travelling further down the line. Just because that train was normally available, it doesn't entitle passengers to travel on it if it had been announced (or indicated) otherwise. That includes all passengers, whatever the price of the ticket, however regular the passenger travelled, (even self-entitled season ticket holders). The change was to make the best use of a short formed train.
You've been pursuing this argument since last year. It's now 2020, so do try to get over it!
I don't object to them making the train pick-up only on short notice nearly as much as I object to them lying about it being pick-up only when it's not. I've said several times what the problems with lying about this are but clearly it seems I am in the minority within this part of the forum in holding that view.

It is apparent that people think that dishonesty is OK as long as there is a reason for it, so it baffles me, using the same logic, why dishonesty on the part of passengers is not seen as acceptable when they may just as well have a reason for it.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I don't object to them making the train pick-up only on short notice nearly as much as I object to them lying about it being pick-up only when it's not.
I haven't gone back through the thread to check, but do we know that the train was not pickup only on that day? There are plenty of variations that the railway make (is the term 'very short term plan'?) and is there anything in the rules that says that varying whether passengers can be carried to a particular destination is not one of those variations?
 

CyrusWuff

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As stated up thread, the decision to make the train in question pick up only at High Wycombe was made on the day due to the service being shortformed from nine coaches to five due to a unit failure.

Alternative services were available at 1753 (arr 1830) and 1801 (arr 1838).

Whilst this is not ideal, it's better than cancelling the train entirely if the Driver refused to take it due to overcrowding.
 

Fawkes Cat

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As stated up thread, the decision to make the train in question pick up only at High Wycombe was made on the day due to the service being shortformed from nine coaches to five due to a unit failure.
So were Chiltern lying to say this at Marylebone? No, they were stating what the position was on that day. Which strikes me as being a useful sort of thing to do.
 

najaB

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In which way are you suggesting that Chiltern's actions in this case (of deliberately omitting an actual calling point on a list of calling points, and instructing staff to say that the train would not be calling at Wycombe) was not consistent with the above definition?
They did not lie. The service was not available for passengers travelling to High Wycombe. End of story.
 

t_star2001uk

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In which way are you suggesting that Chiltern's actions in this case (of deliberately omitting an actual calling point on a list of calling points, and instructing staff to say that the train would not be calling at Wycombe) was not consistent with the above definition?.

So, if a stop is made pick up only because of whatever valid operational reason, how do we stop passengers joining that train. If we put "Pick up only or PU" do you honestly think passengers will see that. The majority of passengers that time of day would basically be on get me home autopilot and wouldn't see anything written next to the station on the board. As I said in a previous post maybe the only answer is the cancel the train then everybody suffers....
 

AM9

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As stated up thread, the decision to make the train in question pick up only at High Wycombe was made on the day due to the service being shortformed from nine coaches to five due to a unit failure.

Alternative services were available at 1753 (arr 1830) and 1801 (arr 1838).

Whilst this is not ideal, it's better than cancelling the train entirely if the Driver refused to take it due to overcrowding.
Clearly not as far a those who from time to time post complaining here about pick-up only arrangements, (whether they are described as such in the timetable or not). They seem to think that their wish to board the fastest train for their journey overrides the needs of every other passenger, even those who might have a far more troublsome journey than their short delay by getting the next train. Luckily, like so many posting on this thread, the TOC doesn't agree that their service is just for the most selfish passengers, and does what it has to for everybody's benefit. They know, probably through the antics of the selfish that this was the best way to make them behave respectfully. Those who don't like it can then rant to their heart's content. A better solution would be to do the Reading style fix, i.e. Start a train from High Wycombe, carry the selfish ones over to the next stop and collect the excesses in the process. Unfortunately, it seems that they don't have sufficient stock and/or drivers to do that.
 

najaB

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Unfortunately, it seems that they don't have sufficient stock and/or drivers to do that.
It seems so, given that the whole chain of events was (apparently) kicked off due to unavailability of stock/crew.
 

MikeWh

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I don't object to them making the train pick-up only on short notice nearly as much as I object to them lying about it being pick-up only when it's not.
You need to grasp one simple point. If a train is pick-up only then that station will not be mentioned at any stations before the pick-up only location. It's not lying, it's just how they stop people using the train.

Move on, please.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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You need to grasp one simple point. If a train is pick-up only then that station will not be mentioned at any stations before the pick-up only location. It's not lying, it's just how they stop people using the train.

Move on, please.
From the initial tweets it was clear that it was not actually pick-up only.
 

bb21

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Yawn. Let's get some serious perspective and move on.
 
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