Chiltern in to Baker Street?

[NSE]

As I was browsing Wikipedia you do, I discovered this (describing Chiltern's Parly services):

Metropolitan Line: There is also a parliamentary service to and from London Baker Street. Northbound, this service runs once per week, on Saturday mornings, from Baker Street (using the Metropolitan line platforms at the station) to Aylesbury via Amersham. The southbound return runs twice per week, on Saturday and Sunday evenings, from Aylesbury to Baker Street.

Now as far I know this is rubbish, and no Turbo's go anywhere near Baker Street. But it did get me thinking, did it ever happen historically? back in the steam days, or early diesel days, did the British Rail services ever head into Baker Street? I know the Metropolitan Line used to head to Aylesbury et al, but did BR services get into Baker Street?

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

It seems to be timetabled, leaving 'London Baker Street' at 0604 and arriving at Aylesbury at 0726, Saturdays only. Saturday return is at 2318, arriving at 0040 and Sunday is 2213 from Aylesbury Vale Parkway, arriving at 2336.

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/...les/May - December 2016 timetable booklet.pdf

 

[47513 Severn]

It seems to be timetabled, leaving 'London Baker Street' at 0604 and arriving at Aylesbury at 0726, Saturdays only. Saturday return is at 2318, arriving at 0040 and Sunday is 2213 from Aylesbury Vale Parkway, arriving at 2336.

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/...les/May - December 2016 timetable booklet.pdf

All those trains are shown in 'connecting service' light type for the Amersham to Baker Street section. They are Metropolitan Line LU services that connect with Chiltern trains at Amersham.

 

[RPM]

There are definitely no Chiltern services running into of out of Baker Street.

It doesn't show up well on the PDF, but those services are shown in light type between Amersham and Baker Street, meaning they are a connecting service, run by LUL.

Interestingly, Chiltern did take a serious look at running some trains into Baker Street during the late 1990s, as a way of reducing congestion into Marylebone. It didn't happen in the end, although I forget the exact reason. It may have been loading gauge or possibly ventilation issues.

 

[shaun]

Yes its complete nonsense, 165s aren't even cleared through the tunnels into Baker Street. Such a unit would also have to run over the Met for the entire route, there are no crossovers south of Harrow (where the Chiltern line leaves LUL tracks) as far as i know? Cant imagine the headaches involved in that, much easier to terminate the Turbos at Amersham and connect with LUL services.

 

[30907]

cant imagine the headaches involved in that, much easier to terminate the Turbos at Amersham and connect with LUL services.

Which is how the Sunday (and late evening?) service operated for many years.

 

[NSE]

Interesting it shows in the timetable. Yeah I seemed to recall reading somewhere it was investigated but not ever done. Out of pure interest how much work would have to be done so that the turbos could reach Baker Street? It would be funny to see everyone expecting an eight carriage long S8 and to have a two car turbo pull up haha

 

[MK Tom]

Would loading gauge be an issue? S8 stock is wider than most mainline stock I believe.

 

[Nym]

And shorter cars...

 

[edwin_m]

There were a few railtours on the Circle Line using Mk2 stock. The Turbos are longer and narrower, similar to Mk3 stock, so could have problems on the many very tight curves on the sub-surface network in Central London. However I don't think the Met has any such tight curves north of the south end of Baker Street platforms.

 

[PeterC]

Looking at the timetable booklet it isn't obvious to anybody unfamiliar with the bold / light type convention that those aren't through trains. With no special notes or symbols in the column there is no obvious need to go to page 110 where the convention is explained.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I stand for correction, but I believe the main barrier to running Chiltern services into Baker Street may be the tunnels between Finchley Road and Baker Street. Getting them onto the Met at Harrow is easy!

Having said that, however, I have a vague memory of the 4TC sets running through to Baker Street during the old "Steam on the Met" events, and those are the same width as the 165s but 20m (technically 64'9 and 64'6) vehicles rather than 23m.

 

[NSE]

Would they be capable south of Harrow? Between Harrow and the tunnels at Finchley Road?

 

[BanburyBlue]

So, changing tack a little by way of a history lesson..

Considering the Metropolitan line used to run all the way past Aylesbury (Verney Junction/Brill?), at some point a decision was made to curtail the line and terminate trains at Amersham.

The question is why Amersham? Seems a bit of strange choice considering how relatively small Amersham is and how far out of London it is?

 

[AlterEgo]

So, changing tack a little by way of a history lesson..

Considering the Metropolitan line used to run all the way past Aylesbury (Verney Junction/Brill?), at some point a decision was made to curtail the line and terminate trains at Amersham.

The question is why Amersham? Seems a bit of strange choice considering how relatively small Amersham is and how far out of London it is?

I don't know for sure but it was done at the same time as electrification - Amersham was probably the furthest away it was economically sensible to electrify.

 

[adrock1976]

Also remember the technology of the time as well when the Met got electrified.

I'm not an expert in this, but my reckoning is that there would have been too much of a voltage drop northwards of Amersham.

 

[tsr]

If I remember correctly, I believe that 378s can, at least in theory, fit down some Subsurface routes. I did even hear once that it had been tried in practice, but whether or not this was merely wibble from an especially insane enthusiast escapes me. However, 378s have much more in common with 377s and 387s than Turbo stock of any variety, even though they are linked in a few ways in terms of manufacturing lineage. Obviously most Electrostar and Capitalstar stock has coaches far closer to 20m than 23m lengths.

 

[30907]

The Met was electrified to Rickmansworth in 1925, using Bo-Bo locos of which Sarah Siddons survives. The section beyond remained steam until 1960, but the locos were absorbed into LNER stock (after the LPTB was formed).
By 1960 commuter traffic had developed beyond Rickmansworth, but beyond Amersham the area was "undeveloped" (and apart from Aylesbury, whose growth in my lifetime has been massive, is still quite rural - hence the fuss about HS2), so electrification wasn't a realistic option. Amersham was also operationally more convenient than Rickmansworth for terminating trains. IIRC ownership of the line beyond was transferred to BR in 1960?

 

[PermitToTravel]

A Stock and 165s have a very similar loading gauge, both running solely on former broad gauge lines. A 165 would almost certainly fit down all of the Met

 

[edwin_m]

A Stock and 165s have a very similar loading gauge, both running solely on former broad gauge lines. A 165 would almost certainly fit down all of the Met

Apart from the central section in the very early years, when was the Met ever broad gauge?

 

[PermitToTravel]

I think I'm confusing my track gauge and my loading gauge

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Whoever has excised the Baker Street fiction from Wikipedia has also removed the details of Chiltern's (still extant) Banbury-Oxford service... http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=C72367&date=20160813&back=#!board?stn=TAC&date=20160813&show=dep

 

[swt_passenger]

Whoever has excised the Baker Street fiction from Wikipedia has also removed the details of Chiltern's (still extant) Banbury-Oxford service... http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=C72367&date=20160813&back=#!board?stn=TAC&date=20160813&show=dep

That's fair enough isn't it? There is no evidence that the Banbury Oxford service has any parliamentary purpose. Something being different to the usual timetable doesn't guarantee something is 'parliamentary'.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Indeed; but it would be better elsewhere in the article than excised completely.

But Wikipedia is so full of trigger-happy reverters that I'm loth to fix it myself. Last time I removed a bunch of crayonista stuff about there not being a north-to-east chord at Glendon Junction, it immediately got reinserted by a wannabe admin whose profile page reads: "I am a High School Senior from Seattle, Washington, USA... MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! #TRUMP2016". The nonsense in question is still on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corby#Transport ...