Chiltern - New Locos!

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Masboroughlad

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I have read in RAIL and Rail Express that Chiltern have tendered for some 100mph locos to haul carriages as they move towards more LHCS trains! Brilliant!

Anyone know what they will be? I think they have said they don't have to be new, but surely nothing could be refurbed to that standard? I think it is to supplement the 67s???? Anyone know?

Good news to me, because if one mainline operator sees that DMUs are not necessarily the best way forwards, then so may others.......
 
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MidnightFlyer

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Good news to me, because if one mainline operator sees that DMUs are not necessarily the best way forwards, then so may others.......

I believe the planned mass increase of LHCS is to free up 168s for Oxford trains when the curve at Bicester opens. As for the current 'Silver Trains', aren't they used to free up more DMUs elsewhere? I wouldn't necessarily say Chiltern are anti-DMU, it's just LHCS is a useful resource.
 

anthony263

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Could be they want more 67's or perhaps a locomotive which doesnt drink as much fuel and is lighter than the class 67's
 

HSTEd

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The reason that Chiltern may or may not want additional locomotives is because they have, or will soon have, Mark 3s to spare with no traction to haul them.
This is cheaper than buying DMUs if the coaches have no value.
 

sprinterguy

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Could be they want more 67's or perhaps a locomotive which doesnt drink as much fuel and is lighter than the class 67's
The Vossloh Eurolight fits the bill then: The lighter, more fuel efficient, next generation variant of the class 67.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The details of the contract tender can be found here:
http://www.publictenders.net/node/1743694
 
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Polarbear

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One of the reasons Chiltern are looking at Loco's is that where an DMU has more than 5 engines, it starts to become more economic to run the service as loco & coaching stock. There's a piece in the July edition of Modern Railways that mentions this.

If they can obtain a loco that uses less diesel than the 67's & costs less to maintain, I'm sure they'll be interested. My concern is that notwithstanding the excellent refurbishment of the Mk3's, they are getting on in years & won't last forever. Will we ever see new coaches built to work with the loco's?
 

matt

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They could just be class 67s. I am not sure when the current lease agreement from DBS expires.
 

David10

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My concern is that notwithstanding the excellent refurbishment of the Mk3's, they are getting on in years & won't last forever. Will we ever see new coaches built to work with the loco's?
And I am sure it will be for any ROSCO who will need to weigh this up when working out over what period it needs to recover the capital cost through lease charges. The Mk3s are probably good for another 20, but the locos are likely to have a service life of at least 30.
 

Masboroughlad

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And I am sure it will be for any ROSCO who will need to weigh this up when working out over what period it needs to recover the capital cost through lease charges. The Mk3s are probably good for another 20, but the locos are likely to have a service life of at least 30.

Probably a daft question. Who in the world is geared up to build hauled coaches that could operate in the UK?

Anyone know how much a mk3 refurb (ala Chiltern) costs vs a new build coach (non-powered)?
 

DXMachina

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well I'm pretty sure not every DMU or EMU coach built for the UK is motored

If builders can make unpowered cars for the UK, they can make LHCS.
 

ChristopherJ

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Locos...? ...replacing units!? In ze UK!? This zist madess! There must be a grievous mistake by god! Next they'll be reports of Chiltern having purchased double deck DOSTOs with hybrid electro-diesels for through services to continental Europe!

I can see the froth building on the horizon already, we're all doomed to die under a pile of salivary foam.

well I'm pretty sure not every DMU or EMU coach built for the UK is motored

If builders can make unpowered cars for the UK, they can make LHCS.

People forget that passenger DMU/EMUs are just normal passenger carriages with a traction package underslung in the underframe. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure I'll be proved wrong - just like 165s and 166s aren't Networkers... :lol:
 
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Yew

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Pendolinos have trailer coaches, I imagine it wouldn't be the most difficult thing to convert the design to a LHCS formation, and Siemens make continental guage LHCS, I imagine they could come up with a design for MkVI carriages if a tender was issued
 

sprinterguy

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A better question might be who's even building LHCS before asking if they can do a version for the UK!
Siemens, for starters. They produced the Viaggio Comfort carriages for the Austrian Railjet rakes.

And Bombardier would have been capable of producing UK spec loco hauled coaching stock for the original Virgin Crosscountry specification before the order was changed for a larger order of DEMUs only.

I believe that new build coaching stock was also constructed for the City Nightline sleeper services across Europe within the last decade, although I don't know who by.

In short, the majority of the major train builders would be perfectly capable of producing loco hauled coaching stock if a sufficient quantity was ordered.

And as DXMachina says, there would be nothing to stop Siemens, Alstom or Bombardier adapting an existing multiple unit design to operate as unpowered loco hauled stock. I sometimes think that the class 180 carriage design would make for an excellent form of Intercity LHCS.
 

HSTEd

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One of the reasons Chiltern are looking at Loco's is that where an DMU has more than 5 engines, it starts to become more economic to run the service as loco & coaching stock. There's a piece in the July edition of Modern Railways that mentions this.

This tends to only hold for higher speed DMUs (those approaching 125mph) and not this rather slow regime (its almost the Express Sprinter/Turbostar regime).
As an example a five coach Turbostar derived DMU (whether it has end doors or not) with similar usable internal space, weighs in at ~210t compared to the 133t for a Cl67 and DVT alone before we even consider the coaches.
The total weight comes out somewhere in the region of 330t with the same five coaches of internal space (using the IE De Dietrich as an example of modern rolling stock at ~39t each).

The Turbostar would have Cl172 derived mechanical equipment with 485hp per carriage, which gives a five carriage formation 2425hp or 11.54hp/t.
Meanwhile the loco hauled formation has ~3200hp or 9.70hp/t.
If you were only interested in loco hauled performance you could have a formation consisting of four motor vehicles and one trailer, which reduces the maintenance considerably.

If they can obtain a loco that uses less diesel than the 67's & costs less to maintain, I'm sure they'll be interested. My concern is that notwithstanding the excellent refurbishment of the Mk3's, they are getting on in years & won't last forever. Will we ever see new coaches built to work with the loco's?

A Eurolight is likely to improve the weight issue to a degree but it does so by adopting multiple-unit type engines rather than a single power-plant.
It is far more likely that these would be sent to work on the sort of freights that Cl67s work currently after the Mark 3s are scrapped.

There will be no major return to loco hauled formations in the UK, they just can't compete.
 

ChristopherJ

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I sometimes think that the class 180 carriage design would make for an excellent form of Intercity LHCS.
The class 175 and class 180 Coradia 1000 carriages bear an uncanny resemblance to the Mark 4 carriage. I wouldn't be surprised if Alstom modeled the products from the blue prints of the Intercity225 which they purchased upon the accusation of Metro Cammell...

They look exactly like a non-tilt variation of the Mark 4.



 
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Smudger105e

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They could just be class 67s. I am not sure when the current lease agreement from DBS expires.

Aren't Chiltern owned by DB, therefore not so much a lease as DB finding a use for surplus 67s...

Alstom modeled the products from the blue prints of the Intercity225 which they purchased upon the accusation of Metro Cammell...





Acquisition surely? :oops: Sorry about my pedantry.
 

sprinterguy

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Aren't Chiltern owned by DB, therefore not so much a lease as DB finding a use for surplus 67s...
DBs' UK rail interests all operate as separate subsidiaries though, despite being part of the same parent company. So Chiltern still pay leasing costs to DB Schenker for the 67s.

It is true though that this tender could simply end up as essentially nothing more than a renewal of the lease with DB Schenker to provide 67s, although DB Schenker may have difficulty in sourcing as many as 13 locos at a future date if traffic flows and fleet demands remain similar to what they are at present.
 

David10

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..although DB Schenker may have difficulty in sourcing as many as 13 locos at a future date if traffic flows and fleet demands remain similar to what they are at present.
According to wnxx.com, DBS have seven 67s in store. And they could return a few more 60s without much drama.
 

RPM

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Anyone know how much a mk3 refurb (ala Chiltern) costs vs a new build coach (non-powered)?

I've heard figures of around 750K mentioned for a refurbed Chiltern mark 3 (cost of coach plus refurb). New DMU vehicles are somewhere around 1.2 to 1.5 million each. Not sure what a new build loco-hauled coach would cost. Theoretically it should be less than the DMU vehicle but the fact that it would have to be designed, tested and approved from scratch would push the cost up massively.

I can't see a new build happening though. As long as corrosion is managed properly mark 3s should go on for many more years yet. I believe the seats are going to have to be changed in a few years time due to a compliance issue but that isn't a problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is true though that this tender could simply end up as essentially nothing more than a renewal of the lease with DB Schenker to provide 67s, although DB Schenker may have difficulty in sourcing as many as 13 locos at a future date if traffic flows and fleet demands remain similar to what they are at present.

The fuel costs of 67s are a big issue for Chiltern and there have been rumours about Eurolights for some time so although the tender requirements could be met by 67s my hunch is that this is not what they are really looking for.
 
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sprinterguy

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The fuel costs of 67s are a big issue for Chiltern and they've been musing about Eurolights for some time so although the tender requirements could be met by 67s my hunch is that this is not what they are really looking for.
Thanks for some inside information. I wonder then if DRS might be "in the money" as they already have twenty Vossloh Eurolights on order, so they would be able to start with a blank sheet of paper and tailor the locos rostered duties around the workload of the proposed Chiltern service, or even add on a couple of additional locos to the order for rapid delivery.
 

David10

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I wonder then if DRS might be "in the money" as they already have twenty Vossloh Eurolights on order, so they would be able to start with a blank sheet of paper and tailor the locos rostered duties around the workload of the proposed Chiltern service, or even add on a couple of additional locos to the order for rapid delivery.
Think it a fair assumption, DRS as far as I am aware don't have any specific flow for which they are destined. Just would mean they may need to hold onto some 47s or 66s for a bit longer. DRS have 15 on order with an option for more. http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...ders-15-vossloh-eurolight-uk-locomotives.html
 

fgwrich

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Siemens, for starters. They produced the Viaggio Comfort carriages for the Austrian Railjet rakes.

And as DXMachina says, there would be nothing to stop Siemens, Alstom or Bombardier adapting an existing multiple unit design to operate as unpowered loco hauled stock. I sometimes think that the class 180 carriage design would make for an excellent form of Intercity LHCS.

Having just looked at various pictures of the Siemens Viaggio Comfort carriages, i'd be happy to have those over here - Maybe order a Taurus to go with and you've got a perfect set up for LHCS Push Pull operations.

As for the Alstom Class 175/180 coach as a similar set up - I’ll agree with that too, as I’ve always found the design of the Alstom Coradia DMUs to be very good - and if you compare the recent pictures from FGW covering the Mk3 Buffet conversions and Class 180 Refurbishments, you can see some similarities between the Mk3 design and that of the Adelantes.

Regarding the contract for newer locos - i thought this was also to with the case of DB Schenker & DB Regio becomming too close together? (Something i think was mentioned on the previous thread about this tender).
 

Cherry_Picker

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The mark 3 refurbs come in at about £770k per coach.
A class 172 was almost £1.5m per coach.
The lease on the 67s expires in 2014 as far as I am aware.
 

DXMachina

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I imagine if there is ever another LHCS order it will be designed for future conversion to EMU usage, EG pantograph wells and space for traction equipment in the original design
 

LE Greys

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Possibly CAF, a standard-gauge version of the Irish coaches they built recently.
 

43067

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Here are some bullet points from this months rail express regarding the Loco order.
ARRIVA has placed the mandatory notice requirement (OJEU Notice) seeking up to 13 100mph diesel locos. There are 2 options:
1: lease or hire of locomotives.
2: lease or hire of locomotives, together with provision of associated heavy maintenance and technical support services.
Any new DMU's would need to be engine compliant with Euro 3B emission regs. at present there are no such engines available that would suit the power range and space envelope for UK DMUs.
The current hire period for the Class 67 expires at the end of 2014.
The class 67 design is now 15 years old and locomotive technology has progressed in the mean time, and some newer designs under construction overseas are capable of being modified for UK use eg, Vossloh Eurolight.
Of interest is that the OJEU Notice stipulates that the initial seven locos will be required to be ready for fleet service by December 2014.
 

route:oxford

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As an example a five coach Turbostar derived DMU (whether it has end doors or not) with similar usable internal space, weighs in at ~210t compared to the 133t for a Cl67 and DVT alone before we even consider the coaches.

So by comparison 2 class 43 locos weigh 140 Kg, surprisingly little difference.

That would suggest to me that, particularly for the purposes of redundancy, that it would be far better to build 100mph locos capable of operating in a push-pull mode with Mk3 LHCS.


(Of course, the tender for new Locos for Chiltern was discussed in the power-door mark 3 thread over a month ago...)
 
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