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Chiltern Railways between Birmingham and London - always this bad?

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This weekend has been the first time I’ve used Chiltern Railways to get from Birmingham to London (normally use the Virgin into Euston).

Have to say - without catering provisioning and the door of one of the large disabled toilets malfunctioning to stay resolutely jammed open - both trains I have been on between Moor Street and Marylebone (I’m on the return now and haven’t manage to get a seat as yet - nearly halfway into the journey) have been severely crush loaded.

Is this a normal occurrence with Chiltern (so switching back to Virgin in future) - or would weekend travel with Chiltern be given another chance?
 
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CyrusWuff

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There was an incident at Stechford at around 0930 (cleared at around 1115) so Chiltern would have been carrying CrossCountry, London Northwestern/West Midlands Railway and Virgin passengers as well as their own.
 

Broken70

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I travelled on the 15:40 from Marylebone to Moor St on the 24th of November. Train was busy but not standing out of Marylebone but did end up rather full upon arrival into Moor St picking up a large number of passengers at Solihull however the Christmas market was on. I always think you get what you pay for with Chiltern as its normally the cheaper option.
 

cactustwirly

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The 168 services are like that yesterday, travelled on one on a Sunday a few weeks ago, and was lucky to get a seat from High Wycombe to Birmingham
 

TheWalrus

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Left Marylebone on the 15:40 on Friday, full with a few standing. Came back on the 1146 off Leamington today which had ample capacity but the one before was very busy.
 

Esker-pades

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I've always had ample room on Chiltern. My most recent journeys were from Marylebone to Birmingham and back on a Saturday. I had a loco-hauled set outbound (perfectly fine) and an 8 car 168 on the return (swimming in additional capacity). Peak time crowding is certainly not the worst I've come across in London.
 

Ian Hardy

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All my recent journeys I have had on Chiltern have been fine, I prefer a Mark 3 or Class 168 to a Class 390 any day, it also helps that a Super Off Peak return from Marylebone to Birmingham is only £30.50 as is valid as early as the 08:40 on Monday to Friday (as I get a Gold Card discount after 09:30 which makes it only £20.05) and there are no southbound pm restrictions. Before Bicester Village opened, the up trains in the late afternoon got quite busy after Bicester North because of all the people returning from the Bicester outlet village with bags of bargains (mostly foreigners who do not understand the term Quiet Coach), but now the Oxford services get that custom.
 

Kingsbury Jn.

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This weekend has been the first time I’ve used Chiltern Railways to get from Birmingham to London (normally use the Virgin into Euston).

Have to say - without catering provisioning and the door of one of the large disabled toilets malfunctioning to stay resolutely jammed open - both trains I have been on between Moor Street and Marylebone (I’m on the return now and haven’t manage to get a seat as yet - nearly halfway into the journey) have been severely crush loaded.

Is this a normal occurrence with Chiltern (so switching back to Virgin in future) - or would weekend travel with Chiltern be given another chance?

Everything seemed to be rammed yesterday. The Stansted's and Leicester trains from Coleshill Parkway into New st and the 10.50 (VT) from there to Euston was pretty full after Coventry. I normally use Chiltern from Solihull so it's nice to know that I chose correctly this weekend. I have noticed a steady rise in patronage, in recent months, on Saturday evenings from Marylebone. It's unlikely that there is any extra stock to ease the overcrowding.
 

tsr

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Personally, I usually find Chiltern reasonably pleasant to travel with, but only so long as you are willing to move down the train to get seats, don’t mind the odd surge of popularity and so on.

Sometimes they definitely seem to be victims of their own success, though. This especially applies with the capacity on the south end of their mainline, the length of unit formations available for them to use, their generally reliable service meaning they don’t have as much experience managing disruption (which can really show), and more besides.

Perhaps mostly as a result of this, they definitely don’t have the capacity to take on the passengers displaced by the WCML and XC routes when they suffer failures. It would be lovely if more trains could simply divert down the Chiltern route, rather than simply diverting the passengers without providing the big metal boxes to stuff them into, but it’s just not that easy without a lot of costly contingency arrangements which would possibly be quite slow to implement in an emergency. Perhaps, with due apologies to companies like VTWC, Chiltern should feel compelled to decline ticket acceptance except in the event of seriously protracted WCML problems, simply because they will overstretch their own routes by allowing more and more crowds of people onto them. If anything, aside from the trains themselves, one day it will probably become more than even fairly large stations like Marylebone can handle. I already worry about how many people try to squeeze through that gateline at times, and it’s not like there is spare width of the station buildings that could be better used to make life easier.

Of all their rolling stock, I tend to think the Mk3s are certainly no more pleasant to travel on than the 168 units. The only benefit from a purely passenger-orientated point of view now seems to be from the fact that the Mk3 consists are of a length which is now really the minimum necessary, and you can also walk all the way through a Mk3 set to find a seat. (On an off-topic note, but by extension, I do understand it’s nice to have a powerful locomotive-hauled train from a novelty and enthusiast perspective, but compared to the relatively modern Clubmans, the Mk3 interior tends to look quite dated outside of the GWR refurbs, even with decent fittings, and the soundproofing on the Chiltern ones can be atrocious - you don’t have to be especially unlucky to find you can hear the hand driers and squeaks from the doors / gangways through the whole coach. Things like this, and the lack of catering for some, can start to be annoying niggles for passengers, to the point where it’s seen as no better than anything else.)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I think Chiltern certainly make an excellent effort at running a good operation. The available rolling stock and line capacity are probably their main constraints. It's not entirely ideal serving so many different markets of passengers on one single route - frequent local services for commuters to/from the area up to Aylesbury and Princes Risborough, the horde of foreign tourists going to Bicester Village, as well as the Birmingham expresses competing on price with London Northwestern Railway (and to a lesser extent, Virgin).

Ultimately I think increasing the line capacity and the number of units will be something that will probably be up for consideration when it comes to the franchise renewal in a few years' time. No doubt the DfT will still be clambering around attempting to find excuses for making a direct award (or two) for a few years, but ultimately within the next 5 years or so we should see a new franchise.

The optimal solution would of course be to offload some of the older units to the likes of Northern, for whom some 165s would enable an increase in capacity through doubling/tripling up more 150s, 156s etc. - and/or simply retiring that sort of fleet (I mean, most of it's 30 years old or so by now!). This would then leave room for a large order of Civities perhaps (tying in just after the current batch ordered by WMT, GA et al), with passive bimodal provision for any future electrification.

And other than that, since it's probably fanciful to hope for four tracking all the way to, say, Princes Risborough or Bicester South Junction (which is what would be best in an ideal world), I think the best that could be hoped for would be making more of the stations have four platforms (or at least four lines), so that there's greater capacity to let expresses overtake stoppers in the same way that currently already happens at Princes Risborough, West Ruislip and South Ruislip.

Marylebone would probably remain somewhat of a bottleneck with 'just' 6 platforms. The junction work just outside Marylebone is also far from ideal, with only one movement at once being possible for most combinations of arrival, departure and platform number, and Neasden South Junction could do with being grade separated.

In reality, I expect the stock situation will not change much, which is a shame given the rapid increases in usage which have been seen over the past few years. And if there is any upgrade in line capacity, I would be surprised if it happened through an increased number of tracks, rather than (for example) moving block signalling.
 
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trash80

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Chiltern are my route of choice for Brum to London though they have declined a bit in recent years, a lot of that though is simply because of rising passenger numbers. They really need a bit more capacity.

I find Marylebone a much better gateway into London than Euston
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I have always found that Chiltern are really good. I do however try to ensure that I am on the loco hauled services rather than the DMUs. There seems to be more space. Sunday travelling can often be a bit fraught owing to sometimes track work and a less frequent operation of services on some routes. I normally tend to bring my own food & drink when travelling.

I do think their uniform is smart too.

Is there a 7th platform at Marylebone, number A? I was there a few weeks ago and passengers for one service, I think to Aylesbury, were directed to A.
Is there also an unused platform, use for train storage, on the right hand/east side of the station too, that could be bought into passenger use as well?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I have always found that Chiltern are really good. I do however try to ensure that I am on the loco hauled services rather than the DMUs. There seems to be more space. Sunday travelling can often be a bit fraught owing to sometimes track work and a less frequent operation of services on some routes. I normally tend to bring my own food & drink when travelling.

I do think their uniform is smart too.

Is there a 7th platform at Marylebone, number A? I was there a few weeks ago and passengers for one service, I think to Aylesbury, were directed to A.
Is there also an unused platform, use for train storage, on the right hand/east side of the station too, that could be bought into passenger use as well?
There is the Wall Siding, but it would be quite difficult to build a platform next to this, because, as the name suggests, it's right next to the wall that holds up the station roof. It would take major structural works to demolish this wall, install a platform, and support the roof somehow else. Plus Marylebone station is, as one might expect, a Grade II listed building, so it will take an awful lot of bureaucracy and paperwork to get a job like that approved. It would be into the tens of millions of pounds, if not more. Plus Boston Place runs right next to the wall, so you'd need to demolish that and basically buy out the owners of the adjacent properties. In a central London location like that, that may be a very expensive endeavour.

It's probably going to be necessary at some point, unless the plan to run Chiltern services into Old Oak Common comes to fruition. But the other problem is that the Wall Siding is used for stabling trains inter-peak. So you'd either need to run additional trains that aren't actually required (and wasting valuable morning and evening peak paths in and out of Marylebone for empty stock), or you'd need to expand the sidings just beyond the end of Platform 1. All not easy tasks.
 
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oversteer

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A is the waiting area they send you to, up by platforms 5/6, before further updating which of those two platforms the train will start from. I think it was introduced to alleviate congestion on the concourse
 

Bletchleyite

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Chiltern are my route of choice for Brum to London though they have declined a bit in recent years, a lot of that though is simply because of rising passenger numbers. They really need a bit more capacity.

I find Marylebone a much better gateway into London than Euston

Marylebone is a wonderfully civilised station for a big city, almost feels like an exclusive club, but unless you're going to the nearby area on foot (or don't mind a walk to Baker St for connections) I don't see how one can genuinely think that - it is very poorly connected indeed, with only one Tube line and two bus routes serving it directly.
 

NickBucks

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Marylebone is a wonderfully civilised station for a big city, almost feels like an exclusive club, but unless you're going to the nearby area on foot (or don't mind a walk to Baker St for connections) I don't see how one can genuinely think that - it is very poorly connected indeed, with only one Tube line and two bus routes serving it directly.
I quite agree. Somewhat off topic I know but I suspect that at some tube stations you actually walk further from the entrance to the platform you need than is the distance at street level from Marylebone to Baker Street.
 

cactustwirly

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It would be great if they used more 68s on Sundays, as the 168s don't cope very well with the passenger numbers
 

trash80

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Marylebone is a wonderfully civilised station for a big city, almost feels like an exclusive club, but unless you're going to the nearby area on foot (or don't mind a walk to Baker St for connections) I don't see how one can genuinely think that - it is very poorly connected indeed, with only one Tube line and two bus routes serving it directly.

Well most of the time i go to London its somewhere on the Jubilee Line so thats one stop on the Bakerloo... don't even have to go up any stairs!
 

Fawkes Cat

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We use Marylebone to Brum maybe once or twice a year, and as it happens we did so this weekend.

It was busier than I expected: in part this was down to lack of common sense on my part (commuters on the 1755 from Moor Street on a Friday! Who would have expected that?) and also on Sunday due to passengers moving across from Euston because of the WCML incident, but neither train was unreasonably full (we were standing on Friday until Leamington then seated to Marylebone, and seated in a full carriage throughout on Sunday from Marylebone to Moor Street). But it was noticeable that the (168?) stock is showing its age. The seat pads are worn, compacted and loose: wall panels dented and with small gaps between them: the ride didn't feel as good as I remember.

Travelling from the north west to London is always a balance of cost against time against comfort. On the basis of this weekend, that balance has moved a little away from Chiltern.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The answer to overcrowding between Birmingham and London is surely HS2?
That's what it is for, freeing up the current routes for more localised services.
You can add Old Oak Common to the future list of London interchange points as well.
That's assuming HS2 gets though its current crisis. :'(
 

trash80

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Yes though thats a bit of a long term solution, probably won't be up and running till about 2030
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Yes though thats a bit of a long term solution, probably won't be up and running till about 2030

But the DfT is already planning the services (and impact on current franchises) from 2026, with bids for the WCP franchise already in.
When Chiltern and WMT come up for renewal, the arrival of HS2 will figure strongly in their service planning after that date.
Similarly, NR will not be making any significant changes to the current routes before then.
 

Railwaysceptic

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The answer to overcrowding between Birmingham and London is surely HS2?

No. The answer is that Chiltern should run longer trains. The capacity of their main line is more than adequate and there is certainly no need for four tracking. The platforms at stations like Banbury and Leamington Spa are long enough for nine, possibly ten coach trains but Chiltern run mainly three and four coach trains. There is no need to run more trains on the Chiltern Main Line as the necessary frequency has already been achieved. The need is for longer trains and that issue should be central when the franchise comes up for renewal.
 

Mikey C

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Chiltern Railways serve the chilterns! Yes the Birmingham services are useful and I like to go that way as well, but the towns along the Chiltern route are fast growing and on a strategic level it is more important they are served well, than having large numbers of passengers in Birmingham filling the services to capacity on what is a 2 track railway with no spare stock.

Indeed the pricing policy of Chiltern does seem skewed to attract London to Birmingham traffic, with bargain advance tickets available, whereas shorter distance travellers get no such benefits!
 
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Ianno87

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No. The answer is that Chiltern should run longer trains. The capacity of their main line is more than adequate and there is certainly no need for four tracking. The platforms at stations like Banbury and Leamington Spa are long enough for nine, possibly ten coach trains but Chiltern run mainly three and four coach trains. There is no need to run more trains on the Chiltern Main Line as the necessary frequency has already been achieved. The need is for longer trains and that issue should be central when the franchise comes up for renewal.

But you need HS2 to solve WCML south capacity more generally, so it might as well serve the Brum market whilst its at it.

Arguably, Chiltern underserves its intermediate market from what would ideally be the case due to trying to fulfill London-Birmingham instead on a two-track railway.
 

londonbridge

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This weekend has been the first time I’ve used Chiltern Railways to get from Birmingham to London (normally use the Virgin into Euston).

Have to say - without catering provisioning and the door of one of the large disabled toilets malfunctioning to stay resolutely jammed open - both trains I have been on between Moor Street and Marylebone (I’m on the return now and haven’t manage to get a seat as yet - nearly halfway into the journey) have been severely crush loaded.

Is this a normal occurrence with Chiltern (so switching back to Virgin in future) - or would weekend travel with Chiltern be given another chance?

I was on a LNWR from Euston-Birmingham Saturday morning, full and standing with first class declassified.
 

gallafent

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Indeed the pricing policy of Chiltern does seem skewed to attract London to Birmingham traffic, with bargain advance tickets available, whereas shorter distance travellers get so such benefits!

(*“no such benefits” I assume :)

There are some very good prices available for advance fares between Oxford and London (for example), so I'm not sure that's entirely true.
 

trash80

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But the DfT is already planning the services (and impact on current franchises) from 2026, with bids for the WCP franchise already in.
When Chiltern and WMT come up for renewal, the arrival of HS2 will figure strongly in their service planning after that date.
Similarly, NR will not be making any significant changes to the current routes before then.

2026 - 2030 whenever, its still a long time for people already struggling on overcrowded trains
 

nw1

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Not for a while now, but in the period 2010-15ish I regularly used Chiltern between Birmingham to Banbury during a Crewe-Southampton journey to avoid the usually overcrowded XC trains; even the last train of the day on a Sunday (2003 to SOU from New St) was regularly overcrowded.

At the time the Chiltern trains (I usually picked one up on a Sunday around 1930 out of Moor Street, it's the one which stops at lots of small stations south of Banbury) was generally busyish but always with seats available. I think most journeys I made were either in the summer or around November-ish, so at varying times of year. I think there was just one occasion when there were few or no seats but ISTR there had been some special event in Birmingham on that occasion. By contrast one time I remember this train being decidedly quiet.

I have also escaped XC northbound at Banbury travelling northwards (usually Saturday morning) and again found the Chiltern to not be excessively busy.
 
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