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Chiltern refusing to pay delay compensation for both tickets on split ticket journey UPDATE:resolved

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bb21

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ForTheLoveOf has played the system and got the outcome he was looking for however this has absolutely no relevance to 99.9% of people.
To be fair to him there are some good cases and points he has raised before in some threads that really need to be challenged to send the boot up the industry's backside regarding how the customers are treated in some cases, out of what I understand to be genuinely honourable intentions. Some of the cases I have either heard or witnessed would make anyone I know cringe, and a lot of that comes down to a lack of customer focus and appreciation of customer journey experience (something much easier shouted about than done).

It is just that some of the cases are over what many others would class as either minor or insignificant issues, less worthy causes when there are other more important matters which if resolved can benefit more of the travelling public, and sometimes over technicalities which most people would not pay much attention to or consider relevant. Some of the assessment will of course come down to differing individual interpretation as to the importance of the issues involved, but I hope ForTheLoveOf would consider this a fair statement of the situation we find ourselves in in terms of personal differences and perspective of these disputes?

I do applaud his efforts at trying to do something, as I have always personally felt that not enough people are making a fuss to really drive change. Like with many things, such as the continued industrial disputes currently taking place around the country - the directly involved parties (government and the unions in this example) are both far too engrossed in their own grievances/objectives/agenda the suffering of the poor fare paying public are seemingly being completely ignored. While we all differ in our own interpretation and take on how best to achieve things and what to tackle as a priority, we are all entitled to our own choices even if we disagree, eh? ;)
 
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Gareth Marston

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Personally if i need to be somewhere at a certain time and its that important I'm there i.e catching a flight, job interview etc then I will always make arrangements whereby an hours delay will have no adverse effect. If the trains 16 minutes late i'm not looking for compensation - it just confirms why contingency planing was the correct thing to do. I don't want delay relay i want to be where i need to be on time- i plan to make that happen.

Stuff happens - travel by road and find out no ones running around and shouting consumer rights when there's traffic jams. Was the motorist in the traffic jam warned there might be problems with delays using the product by the cars salesman?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Personally if i need to be somewhere at a certain time and its that important I'm there i.e catching a flight, job interview etc then I will always make arrangements whereby an hours delay will have no adverse effect. If the trains 16 minutes late i'm not looking for compensation - it just confirms why contingency planing was the correct thing to do. I don't want delay relay i want to be where i need to be on time- i plan to make that happen.
In this particular case I was not heading to anything time critical. If I was, I would of course leave as much time as possible. But that is quite irrelevant to the claim itself - whether or not you are heading somewhere critical has no bearing on whether you are entitled to compensation. The TOC has provided you a certain timetable when you booked, they have promised to pay compensation if, by a certain margin, they do not meet it - thus it is a pure case of contractually agreed liquidated damages. You wouldn't say the same about Network Rail compensation payments to TOCs - oh, no one was inconvenienced, or if they were, they should have planned better, therefore you don't have to pay if you don't feel like it.

Stuff happens - travel by road and find out no ones running around and shouting consumer rights when there's traffic jams. Was the motorist in the traffic jam warned there might be problems with delays using the product by the cars salesman?
That analogy would be like saying you expect the manufacturer of the train to warn the TOC that inclement weather may cause delays. It simply doesn't work! The critical difference between travel by road is that you have no contract to make use of the road, it is a common law and statute right, and the only time where you would be entitled to claim compensation would be where the appropriate authority had negligently failed to keep the road in an adequate condition, such as that it caused damage or injury.

When travelling by rail, the TOCs have offered to pay you compensation if they don't hold up their end of the bargain. It is therefore not unreasonable to pursue said compensation if they are not forthcoming about paying it.
 

WelshBluebird

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Personally if i need to be somewhere at a certain time and its that important I'm there i.e catching a flight, job interview etc then I will always make arrangements whereby an hours delay will have no adverse effect. If the trains 16 minutes late i'm not looking for compensation - it just confirms why contingency planing was the correct thing to do. I don't want delay relay i want to be where i need to be on time- i plan to make that happen.

Stuff happens - travel by road and find out no ones running around and shouting consumer rights when there's traffic jams. Was the motorist in the traffic jam warned there might be problems with delays using the product by the cars salesman?

But ToC's offer delay compensation as part of the contract you make with them by buying a ticket. Why shouldn't a passenger hold the ToC to that contract?
As for your analogy, it is a pretty rubbish one as the car salesman doesn't say they offer compensation due to delays. ToC's do say that, so they should be held to it.
 

jumble

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Writing off the odd few pounds here and there is part of the cost of doing any business. No business can afford to dedicate staff pouring over technicalities over silly little amounts all the time. There are some complaints you just have to cut your losses and pay off whoever is in the right.

Silly, silly Chiltern here.

I would speculate that leaving it until the last day to respond could mean the company were confident that the OP does not have a strong legal case. They were probably trying to work out if they could do anything to prevent the OP from taking the action, or justifiably defend the case. Otherwise, the commercial reality of needing to pay the claim to make it go away would have been apparent from the point that they recieved the court papers. This reality would not have changed between the point that they first heard from the court and when they finally made their offer. Apart from just serious disorganisation I can't think what other plausible explanation there might be for stringing it out so far.

If this were their view they would have offered you the amount you asked for in your Letter Before Action.


However it is easily possible that someone has run the maths at Chiltern and has decided overall the policy of not settling until court papers have been served and incuring the costs is overall more cost effestive than settling with every Tom Dick or Harry who submits an LBA but has no intention of going further.
We cannot possibly know the answer to this one.

What I do believe is that serving court papers then takes the case out of a low level "professional fobbers off" 's hands who has no authority to settle and it goes to a more qualified legal person who will talke a closer look at the situation.

I am with "ForTheLoveOf" that i feel that companies who take the mickey should be held to account and I too have had considerable success in extracting money out of such organisations when they have blatently misbehaved.
I do not particularly do it for the Money as I also enjoy the chalenge

Jumble
 

talldave

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.......
I am with "ForTheLoveOf" that i feel that companies who take the mickey should be held to account and I too have had considerable success in extracting money out of such organisations when they have blatently misbehaved.
I do not particularly do it for the Money as I also enjoy the chalenge

Jumble

Donating the compensation (less costs) to charity is a good way of reassuring the critics that it's about the principle and not the money.

When I'm wronged by an organisation I vow to never give them my business again (npower & Santander are top of my list). That's just not possible with the rail industry so I'm fully supportive of any action that reminds them of their contractual responsibilities.
 

Gareth Marston

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But ToC's offer delay compensation as part of the contract you make with them by buying a ticket. Why shouldn't a passenger hold the ToC to that contract?
As for your analogy, it is a pretty rubbish one as the car salesman doesn't say they offer compensation due to delays. ToC's do say that, so they should be held to it.

Ive claimed Delay Repay myself in the past and never had a problem doing so.These occasions have been of significant delay once over 2 hours. It would never cross my mind to claim compensation because i was 20 minutes late in the evening with the service still struggling to recover after a earlier fatality on the line for instance. I'm clearly more pragmatic and not into compensation culture like some on the Forum.

Well see how many people actually claim compensation for delays between 15 & 30 minutes once TfW introduce it - i suspect that whilst its contractually offered the uptake will not be very high.
 

WelshBluebird

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Ive claimed Delay Repay myself in the past and never had a problem doing so.These occasions have been of significant delay once over 2 hours. It would never cross my mind to claim compensation because i was 20 minutes late in the evening with the service still struggling to recover after a earlier fatality on the line for instance. I'm clearly more pragmatic and not into compensation culture like some on the Forum.

Well see how many people actually claim compensation for delays between 15 & 30 minutes once TfW introduce it - i suspect that whilst its contractually offered the uptake will not be very high.

I wouldn't say taking a ToC up on part of the contract has anything to do with "compensation culture".
If a ToC will pursue people over unpaid moneys, why shouldn't someone pursue a ToC for the same?

As for people not claiming, I'd say that is more a symptom of how poor the systems are to be honest, and how difficult some ToC's make it.
Claiming for delay compensation can be a right faff, with some ToC's requiring you to upload photos of your tickets that they ask you to deface or cut in two, with some requiring you to find specific ticket numbers that aren't always obvious and with some taking well over a month to actually get back to you. I'd hardly say someone not going through that faff is any indication on if ToC's should be made to follow through with their contractual obligations or not.
 

Starmill

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However it is easily possible that someone has run the maths at Chiltern and has decided overall the policy of not settling until court papers have been served and incuring the costs is overall more cost effestive than settling with every Tom Dick or Harry who submits an LBA but has no intention of going further.
We cannot possibly know the answer to this one.
Yes. All quite true.

I would have thought that, even if you received an LBA from someone you thought were bluffing, you would write back at least. But still.
 

Gareth Marston

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I wouldn't say taking a ToC up on part of the contract has anything to do with "compensation culture".
If a ToC will pursue people over unpaid moneys, why shouldn't someone pursue a ToC for the same?

As for people not claiming, I'd say that is more a symptom of how poor the systems are to be honest, and how difficult some ToC's make it.
Claiming for delay compensation can be a right faff, with some ToC's requiring you to upload photos of your tickets that they ask you to deface or cut in two, with some requiring you to find specific ticket numbers that aren't always obvious and with some taking well over a month to actually get back to you. I'd hardly say someone not going through that faff is any indication on if ToC's should be made to follow through with their contractual obligations or not.

Were veering off thread title now but short of every train being Booked Train only, paid online by card with name and address of the customer and refunds done automatically back to the card you have to design a system that's also not open to fraud and whatever you come up with its going to have some element of 'faff' in it. This has been raised on the forum previously and no ones come up with any 'satisfactory' solution that retains flexible tickets and dolls out compensation automatically hassle free.
 

farleigh

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Well done Fortheloveof.

I am amazed that people are upset that you won and trivialize it for the amount. Would the same people endorse dodging a fare because it was only a couple of quid?
You were wronged and then won the day.
Well done.
 

superjohn

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I don’t think people are questioning the validity of the claim per se (that’s for you, ForTheLoveOf!). It’s more the case that his previous posts on other topics suggested that ForTheLoveOf was desperate to be wronged by a TOC so he could embark on a ‘David vs Goliath’ battle for justice.

I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s eyes rolled when he finally got his wish in such a trivial way. My eyes positively span round with all the stuff about the principle and it all being about helping others in the same position. I’m sure the information will be helpful to some in that respect but giving people guidance on keeping things in proportion and when it’s better just let things go is far more important in life. Sure, TOC’s bank on people not following claims through, or not even claiming in the first place. The main reason is that a lot of people just don’t care, not ignorance of their rights. If I’m an hour late, so be it. Bad stuff happens sometimes and tomorrow is another day.

I know everybody loves a story of the little man taking on the greedy corporate giants but this one was really pushing it.
 

cjp

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ForTheLoveOf has played the system and got the outcome he was looking . . .

Or used the system designed to help David overcome Goliaths.

I am not sure I could be bothered for such a small amount and it would have been better if the case had been heard so we could be sure that he was not just paid to go away but....
 

Mag_seven

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I don’t think people are questioning the validity of the claim per se (that’s for you, ForTheLoveOf!). It’s more the case that his previous posts on other topics suggested that ForTheLoveOf was desperate to be wronged by a TOC so he could embark on a ‘David vs Goliath’ battle for justice.

I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s eyes rolled when he finally got his wish in such a trivial way. My eyes positively span round with all the stuff about the principle and it all being about helping others in the same position. I’m sure the information will be helpful to some in that respect but giving people guidance on keeping things in proportion and when it’s better just let things go is far more important in life. Sure, TOC’s bank on people not following claims through, or not even claiming in the first place. The main reason is that a lot of people just don’t care, not ignorance of their rights. If I’m an hour late, so be it. Bad stuff happens sometimes and tomorrow is another day.

I know everybody loves a story of the little man taking on the greedy corporate giants but this one was really pushing it.

Why should it be a one way street when it comes to TOC/Customer disputes? TOCs will issue penalty fares at the drop of a hat for minor amounts so it makes a change when a customer "turns the tables" so to speak.
 

Haywain

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Why should it be a one way street when it comes to TOC/Customer disputes? TOCs will issue penalty fares at the drop of a hat for minor amounts so it makes a change when a customer "turns the tables" so to speak.
You're right, it shouldn't be a one way street. But many hundreds, if not thousands, of people are not given PFs (or prosecuted) every day because TOCs and their staff show discretion. It's nowhere near as black and white as you seem to think.
 

sheff1

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I am amazed that people are upset that you won and trivialize it for the amount. Would the same people endorse dodging a fare because it was only a couple of quid?

They would start ranting about Mars Bars or if, say, the underpayment was due to some timing or routing issue, they would be pointing out that you agreed to the T&Cs of the contract when you purchased the ticket. Strangely, they don't seem to think TOCs should also abide by the terms of the contract and actively criticise people who take steps to pursue compensation due under the contract.
 

sheff1

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Stuff happens - travel by road and find out no ones running around and shouting consumer rights when there's traffic jams. Was the motorist in the traffic jam warned there might be problems with delays using the product by the cars salesman?

Surely, even at this early stage, this is the most ludicrous analogy of the year. Knocks the usual Mars Bars stuff into a cocked hat.
 

robbeech

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I must admit I’m in two minds about this one.
There is no denying that the claim was valid and the compensation was due. And I agree that it was worth someone with suitable knowledge like Fortheloveof trying to deal with this in this matter.

However, I’m not really sure (sorry) that anything has been achieved here. For one, I feel the TOC are the ones that have played the system here and perhaps you could argue they’ve actually had the last laugh, they’ve let you go to the trouble of sending all that (I know you said it hasn’t taken too long) and they’ve deliberately waited until the last possible minute and paid out. This has cost them next to nothing to deal with. They know full well they’re wrong. They know full well that moneyvwas due to you. However, they haven’t admitted you were due the money, they haven’t admitted they were wrong and they’ve deliberately stopped it going to court as they know that with a case against them they’d have to change. They’ve been denying these claims for years and they don’t want a court case to stop them continuing to do so.

Additionally you claim you don’t care how or why aslong as you’ve got your money. So this backs up the fact that nothing has really been achieved.

I know this isn’t likely what you want to hear, and I wouldn’t want you to think I’m against the idea of claiming, or against the idea of taking them to court, even over small amounts but I think on this occasion it hasn’t been a success for the passenger, just a financial success for yourself (if we ignore any additional costs which I accept it’s ok to do).
So really it comes back down to what you wanted to achieve. If you wanted to achieve getting a couple of quid then it’s been a roaring success, if you wanted to achieve an improvement to customer service and an improvement to the way that particular toc (incidentally not one we hear about causing these sorts of issues very often) handles these issues in order for ‘the railway’ to improve them I think it has failed to meet these targets.

I’ve always been one to try to ensure progress, training, improvements to customer service as a higher priority than compensation for myself, and I rather hope you do agree.
It’s why I’d sooner chuck the money in a lake than receive a ‘goodwill gesture’ when they’re in the wrong. And I’d sooner be prosecuted than ‘be let off this time’ when I’m travelling on a valid ticket
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I don’t think people are questioning the validity of the claim per se (that’s for you, ForTheLoveOf!). It’s more the case that his previous posts on other topics suggested that ForTheLoveOf was desperate to be wronged by a TOC so he could embark on a ‘David vs Goliath’ battle for justice.

I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s eyes rolled when he finally got his wish in such a trivial way. My eyes positively span round with all the stuff about the principle and it all being about helping others in the same position. I’m sure the information will be helpful to some in that respect but giving people guidance on keeping things in proportion and when it’s better just let things go is far more important in life. Sure, TOC’s bank on people not following claims through, or not even claiming in the first place. The main reason is that a lot of people just don’t care, not ignorance of their rights. If I’m an hour late, so be it. Bad stuff happens sometimes and tomorrow is another day.

I know everybody loves a story of the little man taking on the greedy corporate giants but this one was really pushing it.
Well, I hope it's entertained you ;)

Or used the system designed to help David overcome Goliaths.

I am not sure I could be bothered for such a small amount and it would have been better if the case had been heard so we could be sure that he was not just paid to go away but....
Precisely. The TOCs do it for any amount, even over nothing (i.e. where it's purely a question of administration or paperwork), so there's no reason anyone should be giving them any more leeway than they, in turn, give the passengers!

Why should it be a one way street when it comes to TOC/Customer disputes? TOCs will issue penalty fares at the drop of a hat for minor amounts so it makes a change when a customer "turns the tables" so to speak.
Exactly.

I must admit I’m in two minds about this one.
There is no denying that the claim was valid and the compensation was due. And I agree that it was worth someone with suitable knowledge like Fortheloveof trying to deal with this in this matter.

However, I’m not really sure (sorry) that anything has been achieved here. For one, I feel the TOC are the ones that have played the system here and perhaps you could argue they’ve actually had the last laugh, they’ve let you go to the trouble of sending all that (I know you said it hasn’t taken too long) and they’ve deliberately waited until the last possible minute and paid out. This has cost them next to nothing to deal with. They know full well they’re wrong. They know full well that moneyvwas due to you. However, they haven’t admitted you were due the money, they haven’t admitted they were wrong and they’ve deliberately stopped it going to court as they know that with a case against them they’d have to change. They’ve been denying these claims for years and they don’t want a court case to stop them continuing to do so.

Additionally you claim you don’t care how or why aslong as you’ve got your money. So this backs up the fact that nothing has really been achieved.

I know this isn’t likely what you want to hear, and I wouldn’t want you to think I’m against the idea of claiming, or against the idea of taking them to court, even over small amounts but I think on this occasion it hasn’t been a success for the passenger, just a financial success for yourself (if we ignore any additional costs which I accept it’s ok to do).
So really it comes back down to what you wanted to achieve. If you wanted to achieve getting a couple of quid then it’s been a roaring success, if you wanted to achieve an improvement to customer service and an improvement to the way that particular toc (incidentally not one we hear about causing these sorts of issues very often) handles these issues in order for ‘the railway’ to improve them I think it has failed to meet these targets.

I’ve always been one to try to ensure progress, training, improvements to customer service as a higher priority than compensation for myself, and I rather hope you do agree.
It’s why I’d sooner chuck the money in a lake than receive a ‘goodwill gesture’ when they’re in the wrong. And I’d sooner be prosecuted than ‘be let off this time’ when I’m travelling on a valid ticket
Thanks for the feedback. I agree perhaps that "I have my money and nothing else matters" is not, ultimately, a sustainable attitude. But unfortunately I feel it's unrealistic to expect one claim such as this to revolutionise everything - certainly, not unless one has an absolute fortune to shell out on taking the matter to the High Court, which is going to be the only guaranteed way of fixing things. I think the far easier way of resolving the current problems is the "death by a thousand paper cuts" approach. In other words, if everyone who was entitled to this kind of compensation took it to Court, there would be no feasible alternative open to the TOCs other than to train case handlers to pay out correctly. That's perhaps, more than anything else, why I'm sharing this - so that others don't keep on (incorrectly) thinking that Court is a ludicrous, unachievable suggestion.

I agree that, if anything, Chiltern have been the ones that have tried the "long game" by trying to avoid paying out for as long as possible. But that was something I was entirely predicting.
 

yorkie

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Just a reminder that when replying to threads in this D&P section, replies should be relevant.

I do not see any relevance of changes to TfW's delay compensation scheme to this thread. Analogies are usually only relevant for moral argument purposes or amusement purposes, and are not in any way useful for contractual, legal or practicable purposes. Flawed analogies are particularly unwelcome.

Advice about leaving extra time for journeys may well be relevant if that is what people are asking for, but is not relevant when discussing delay compensation liabilities.
 

cjp

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In other words, if everyone who was entitled to this kind of compensation took it to Court, there would be no feasible alternative open to the TOCs other than to train case handlers to pay out correctly. That's perhaps, more than anything else, why I'm sharing this - so that others don't keep on (incorrectly) thinking that Court is a ludicrous, unachievable suggestion.

I agree that, if anything, Chiltern have been the ones that have tried the "long game" by trying to avoid paying out for as long as possible. But that was something I was entirely predicting.

Indeed many cases will settle at the door as it were - a fact that is often acknowledged on this forum with the suggestion that on the day people have word with the prosecutor to come to a settlement. It is just in this instance a day in court would have had potential benefits for many.
Next time . . . . . ;)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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County Court judgements do not set precedent.
They don't legally, but in the eyes of potential claimants, a success at County Court could influence them to make a claim too (or at least to informally ask for the amount they consider due). Similarly, train companies might, in reaction, issue instructions to staff to settle claims.
 
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