Chord at Newark to Allow Nottingham-Doncaster-the NorthEast trains?

[DynamicSpirit]

(Split from the General election thread)

The Conservative manifesto contains this commitment:

We will upgrade the line between Newark and Nottingham to halve journey

This idea only makes sense if they are planning to also build a new chord to allow trains coming from Nottingham/Newark Castle to join the ECML heading North. But away from politics, it occurs to me that is an interesting idea. Besides the suggestion of Nottingham-Leeds trains, it could potentially allow Nottingham-Doncaster-York-Newcastle trains, as well as possibly providing a faster route (in the absence of HS2) for trains to get from the NorthEast to the West Midlands. Is this workable as an idea?

For capacity on the ECML for it you'd need HS2 surely to release fast paths..... Ironic.

Surely it can't be that hard to improve capacity on that section of the ECML? There are fewer trains there than on the same two tracks further South, since the half hourly Thameslinks terminate at Peterborough, and the small number of Lincoln trains have also gone elsewhere at that point, as have the EMT services that also use those tracks between Peterborough and Grantham. You have maybe 6tph of inter-city trains north of Newark, all using similar stock and running at a roughly the same speed, barring some stopping at Retford. That doesn't seem like capacity-exhausting numbers of trains.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Surely it can't be that hard to improve capacity on that section of the ECML? There are fewer trains there than on the same two tracks further South, since the half hourly Thameslinks terminate at Peterborough, and the small number of Lincoln trains have also gone elsewhere at that point, as have the EMT services that also use those tracks between Peterborough and Grantham. You have maybe 6tph of inter-city trains north of Newark, all using similar stock and running at a roughly the same speed, barring some stopping at Retford.

What about the trains at Peterborough which join from the March direction and head north down the ECML.

Yes some trains terminates at Peterborough but others join the ECML here.

 

[35B]

(Split from the General election thread)

The Conservative manifesto contains this commitment:



This idea only makes sense if they are planning to also build a new chord to allow trains coming from Nottingham/Newark Castle to join the ECML heading North. But away from politics, it occurs to me that is an interesting idea. Besides the suggestion of Nottingham-Leeds trains, it could potentially allow Nottingham-Doncaster-York-Newcastle trains, as well as possibly providing a faster route (in the absence of HS2) for trains to get from the NorthEast to the West Midlands. Is this workable as an idea?



Surely it can't be that hard to improve capacity on that section of the ECML? There are fewer trains there than on the same two tracks further South, since the half hourly Thameslinks terminate at Peterborough, and the small number of Lincoln trains have also gone elsewhere at that point, as have the EMT services that also use those tracks between Peterborough and Grantham. You have maybe 6tph of inter-city trains north of Newark, all using similar stock and running at a roughly the same speed, barring some stopping at Retford. That doesn't seem like capacity-exhausting numbers of trains.

You may want to think about the capacity restrictions associated with the flat crossing at Newark, and in the Doncaster area.

As for such a chord, I suggest looking carefully at the map, and considering the nature of the land being crossed.

The idea of speeding up the Nottingham - Lincoln line does make sense in it's own right - especially in the context of a General Election manifesto based on the sweeties for all principle. The lines east from Nottingham are both slow, and the journey times do not make rail attractive.

 

[ChrisC]

(Split from the General election thread)

The Conservative manifesto contains this commitment:

This idea only makes sense if they are planning to also build a new chord to allow trains coming from Nottingham/Newark Castle to join the ECML heading North. But away from politics, it occurs to me that is an interesting idea. Besides the suggestion of Nottingham-Leeds trains, it could potentially allow Nottingham-Doncaster-York-Newcastle trains, as well as possibly providing a faster route (in the absence of HS2) for trains to get from the NorthEast to the West Midlands. Is this workable as an idea?

First of all I think it is just an Election promise that will never happen even if by some unlikely huge miracle the Conservatives did win on 4th July.

Without HS2 between Birmingham and at least as far as East Midlands Parkway the journey from the West Midlands to the North East will always be far quicker via the current route. Upgrading the line between Nottingham and Newark to even 90mph is going to be very costly. The line is currently slow out of Nottingham through Sneinton as far as Carlton. The line between Nottingham and Newark also has several level crossings. On top of the huge cost of upgrading between Nottingham and Newark, constructing a spur onto the ECML at Newark in the confined space next to the River Trent will also be extremely costly, and can“t see it being a particularly high speed junction. Are there really enough potential passengers who would want to travel between Nottingham and Doncaster/Leeds to justify the expense.

Journeys from Nottingham to Leeds and indeed to the North East do need to be speeded up. Surely upgrading the current route via the Erewash Line for faster speeds would be far less expensive with trains running the faster route via Moorthorpe and Wakefield Westgate instead of currently via Barnsley. These trains would still serve important places like Chesterfield, Sheffield and Wakefield. Faster journeys to the North East from Nottingham could easily be achieved with just one change at Grantham, if only some trains to the North East and Edinburgh would stop at Grantham.

The whole idea of upgrading Nottingham to Newark and a spur to the ECML is a good idea but is probably just pie in the sky and far too expensive for compared to other solutions.

 

[The Planner]

What does that even mean though, and why would you upgrade Nottingham to Newark to do that, you would go via the Erewash and speed that journey up.

 

[bangor-toad]

Half the original chord is clear. It's missing a bridge and then a few houses and Homebase are in the way but from an engineering perspective there is a stable land to build on.
I can't see the point though...

And here's the NLS map showing the route: NLS OS 1:25000 (1945-65)

Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[mangyiscute]

Unfortunately, this struggles from the fact that between Peterborough and Doncaster, there are very few large population centres.
Therefore, routeing trains through here is far from ideal for operators since going via other routes will provide much larger numbers of passengers.
Add to this that the ECML does pass through here and provide fast services north and south from these fairly small locations, and you can understand why increasing services through this area is very low down the priority list.
Ultimately, London is a big enough market on its own to justify building a fast track to it through sparsely populated areas and running frequent trains along it, but basically no other market can come anywhere close to matching it, so Nottingham to the north does not have the required demand unless routed through larger places such as Sheffield and Leeds as well.

 

[Grimsby town]

What does that even mean though, and why would you upgrade Nottingham to Newark to do that, you would go via the Erewash and speed that journey up.

An upgraded Nottingham to Newark and link to the ECML did form part of Mott Macdonald's alternative plan for getting HS2 to Leeds. However that also included new HS bypasses on the ECML and HS2 to East Midlands Parkway. Without those interventions I don't see this being a workable plan. It'd likely see quite a few of the local stations closed between Newark and Nottingham too.

 

[topgear_jk]

There is upgrades happening to this line already. 75mph line speed to be taken forward. At the cost estimate of around 20mil. Option 2 was to take the line to 100mph but at a cost over 100mil. If they want to build cheaper Passive provisions, they could build to a 85mph spec or leave room to cheaper upgrades to 85mph as I'm sure NRs standards change at 90mph for more rigorous checks.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

The idea of speeding up the Nottingham - Lincoln line does make sense in it's own right - especially in the context of a General Election manifesto based on the sweeties for all principle. The lines east from Nottingham are both slow, and the journey times do not make rail attractive.

I agree. I've thought that for a very long time. If big money is going to be spent in the Newark area, it should be for a flyover taking the Lincoln/Nottingham line over the ECML, rendering the current flat crossing redundant.

 

[duffield]

I've got to agree with previous posts that the most realistic, useful and cost effective upgrade for services to the north and north east from Nottingham would be to re-route the Leeds service via the more direct route through Wakefield Westgate. That was actually supposed to happen a few years ago, with an extension to Bradford. And also sort out the Leeds platform situation to allow 4 coach services instead of the current inadequate two, which I understand is also a real plan but not fully committed. And add some York and beyond northbound connections at Grantham if possible.

 

[FGWHST43009]

(Split from the General election thread)

The Conservative manifesto contains this commitment:



This idea only makes sense if they are planning to also build a new chord to allow trains coming from Nottingham/Newark Castle to join the ECML heading North. But away from politics, it occurs to me that is an interesting idea. Besides the suggestion of Nottingham-Leeds trains, it could potentially allow Nottingham-Doncaster-York-Newcastle trains, as well as possibly providing a faster route (in the absence of HS2) for trains to get from the NorthEast to the West Midlands. Is this workable as an idea?



Surely it can't be that hard to improve capacity on that section of the ECML? There are fewer trains there than on the same two tracks further South, since the half hourly Thameslinks terminate at Peterborough, and the small number of Lincoln trains have also gone elsewhere at that point, as have the EMT services that also use those tracks between Peterborough and Grantham. You have maybe 6tph of inter-city trains north of Newark, all using similar stock and running at a roughly the same speed, barring some stopping at Retford. That doesn't seem like capacity-exhausting numbers of trains.

If Crosscountry trains took this route they'll have to reverse at Derby which isn't ideal. I agree there should be a faster service from the West Midlands to the North East but I think at the moment that's best provided by CrossCountry's Reading-Newcastle service which will increase in frequency next year. Also, rerouting Nottingham-Leeds via Wakefield Westgate and providing good connections to the fast Birmingham-Newcastle at Sheffield would be better. Ideally I'd run the Birmingham-Doncaster-Newcastle train through from Bristol and extend it non stop to Edinburgh as well as lose the Durham stops so that there's a fast connection from South Yorkshire to Scotland. The existing XC service via Leeds could then terminate at York or Newcastle and come from Reading. TPE would then cover Leeds-Edinburgh direct.