Chris Grayling states: 'ASLEF promise years of industrial action'

[Dave1987]

To me highdyke has just proven where his political standing is - hard right! To say the Independent is left wing is ridiculous as it prides itself on being dead centre and not having any political allegiance. So it's not surprising what opinions highdyke has here, and no wonder the whole class war thing has been brought up and the demanding of efficiency. We all know what hard right Tory MPs Class as "efficiency" though don't we!

 

[highdyke]

The Independent- owned by the same Russian who owns the Evening Boris- may be many things, but left-wing it ain't.

Beyond that, it's the same argument we've had in the DOO thread for six months, "modernisation" being that most well, er, modern, euphemism for "sacking".

I would suggest it's not a modern thing.

Huddersfield suffered days of riots so bad the army had to be brought in because weavers were being made redundant by new fangled mills back in 1812. In fact, it happened thought the Regency and Victorian period as well as the modern era.

I'm sure you are aware of the term people used to those that objected to modernisation?

 

[Tetchytyke]

We all know what hard right Tory MPs Class as "efficiency" though don't we!

Well, quite.

There are 32 individuals at High Speed 2 earning more than £100,000pa, including the HS2 CEO who earns £750,000pa. Quite what he does for his money is anyone's guess, given the progress (or lack of) on HS2. The Head of Infrastructure for HS2 earns £395,000pa, which is impressive given HS2 has precisely no infrastructure.

The second-highest earning direct employee of the Civil Service is a certain Peter Wilkinson, who trousers £260,000pa. I can think of 260,000 "modernisations" that would help the railway industry without sacking a single guard.

 

[highdyke]

To me highdyke has just proven where his political standing is - hard right! To say the Independent is left wing is ridiculous as it prides itself on being dead centre and not having any political allegiance. So it's not surprising what opinions highdyke has here, and no wonder the whole class war thing has been brought up and the demanding of efficiency. We all know what hard right Tory MPs Class as "efficiency" though don't we!

Thankyou Dave for your personal attack once again. I can assure you my opinions are grounded in the real world with a decent understanding of risk.
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I can think of 260,000 "modernisations" that would help the railway industry without sacking a single guard.

Well for God sake don't list them all, we'll be here all day!

The railways have been shedding staff since the Edwardian era.

 

[Dave1987]

Thankyou Dave for your personal attack once again. I can assure you my opinions are grounded in the real world with a decent understanding of risk.

Personal attack? Merely making observations based on your posts. You constantly talk about modernisation and efficiency. Now we know exactly where you political standing is we now know exactly what you mean by modernisation and efficiency. I'm sure you would be proud of the "efficiency" Amazon is getting out of their delivery drivers.

 

[Carlisle]

But another Poster said he did it three times, each separated by many days. No mistake, it seems like it was deliberate to make DOO in 1982 seem very different from now,which is rubbish. I have checked and sitting next to Nick Cash, Mr Whelan told Select committee DOO was only 3 car trains when introduced, then an Aslef press release repeated it & now a later press release says 4 cars. His own members on bedpan must know he is being economical with the truth so he is testing their integrity too.

Presumably that's exacly the same Mr whelan that was perfectly happy to sanction DOO introduction 2 years ago on the likes of London Overground, Whifflet and Cumbernauld lines etc but has now suddenly decided it's far too dangerous for anywhere else,

 

[BestWestern]

Presumably that's exacly the same Mr whelan that was perfectly happy to sanction DOO introduction 2 years ago on the likes of London Overground, Whifflet and Cumbernauld lines etc

It was mentioned elsewhere some time ago that the LOROL shennanigans were permitted due to some sort of existing, historical agreement. I've no idea what, but given GTR's success in their first Court case against Aslef, I would imagine the union felt at that time that no challenge was possible. I've no idea about the other stuff.

 

[highdyke]

Personal attack? Merely making observations based on your posts. You constantly talk about modernisation and efficiency.

The railway is not very efficient and it costs those that use it lots of cash! It's okay for you with your free travel and 50k plus wage, I'm alright jack eh? The blame is across the board, high pay of those at the top, crappy operating practices and so on.

Now we know exactly where you political standing is we now know exactly what you mean by modernisation and efficiency.

You really don't.

I'm sure you would be proud of the "efficiency" Amazon is getting out of their delivery drivers.

Yep, because I've said countless times just how wonderful that is! We have the living wage coming in and zero hours should be outlawed. As it happens I'm reviewing my Amazon prime membership.

 

[TheEdge]

The railway is not very efficient and it costs those that use it lots of cash! The blame is across the board, high pay of those at the top, crappy operating practices and so on.

But notice as always the high pay of those at the top is never where the savings need to be found. It always at the bottom.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Presumably that's exacly the same Mr whelan that was perfectly happy to sanction DOO introduction 2 years ago on the likes of London Overground, Whifflet and Cumbernauld lines etc but has now suddenly decided it's far too dangerous for anywhere else,

The drivers' contracts on LOROL allowed for DOO, same with the drivers on the Strathclyde electrics. The drivers had no way of preventing DOO because their contract of employment said they had to do it. It was the same on Gatwick Express, where GTR's promises of only running DOO of 10-car or more in extremis was shown by the High Court to be worthless.

As has been repeatedly said on the DOO thread, things change. ASLEF did agree with DOO in the 80s and 90s, when trains were shorter and quieter. Now they don't.
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The railway is not very efficient and it costs those that use it lots of cash!

Two individuals at High Speed 2, despite having no infrastructure and no trains, earn £1.2m a year between them.

The mandarin in charge of this fiasco trousers a quarter of a million a year.

Damn right the railway isn't efficient. Funny how the fat cats don't see their cream skimmed.

 

[highdyke]

Yep, they should be brought to book as well. The Gravy train is the whole industry.

 

[Dave1987]

The railway is not very efficient and it costs those that use it lots of cash! It's okay for you with your free travel and 50k plus wage, I'm alright jack eh? The blame is across the board, high pay of those at the top, crappy operating practices and so on.



You really don't.



Yep, because I've said countless times just how wonderful that is! We have the living wage coming in and zero hours should be outlawed. As it happens I'm reviewing my Amazon prime membership.

You talk about more efficiency for Drivers yet can't name a single one! The living wage is complete political rubbish, there are people who work full time yet are still considered to be in poverty. And yes I'm paid very well but I worked damn hard to get there and made lots of sacrifices to do so. But I'm not the one looking at the lower paid in the economy demanding more and more efficiency. I'm not the one attacking trade unions for daring to protect those that can't "name their price" as you so quaintly put it before.

 

[highdyke]

You talk about more efficiency for Drivers yet can't name a single one!

Doh! It's called DOO!!!!!

The living wage is complete political rubbish, there are people who work full time yet are still considered to be in poverty. And yes I'm paid very well but I worked damn hard to get there and made lots of sacrifices to do so. But I'm not the one looking at the lower paid in the economy demanding more and more efficiency. I'm not the one attacking trade unions for daring to protect those that can't "name their price" as you so quaintly put it before.

Nor I'm if you actually bother to understand what I am saying!!!

 

[AlterEgo]

But I'm not the one looking at the lower paid in the economy demanding more and more efficiency.

The lower paid being who? Guards who take home £28-30k? This is above the average UK wage.

 

[Dave1987]

Doh! It's called DOO!!!!!

So sod the disabled then? You make it sound like there are loads and loads of efficiencies to be introduced, yet you can't name any. All the unions want is a guarantee that this new role will not be got rid of into the future. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you really don't understand how drivers work or are trained despite claiming to be a knowledgable authority on it all.
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The lower paid being who? Guards who take home £28-30k? This is above the average UK wage.

Hasn't highdyke said that future OBS could be knocked down to circa £20k in the future. Yup sounds like "modernisation". That would put them squarely into the poverty area in the South with house prices like they are.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hasn't highdyke said that future OBS could be knocked down to circa £20k in the future. Yup sounds like "modernisation".

I don't know, it's very difficult to follow the shouting match at the moment.

Even so, £20k seems about right for an entry-level customer-facing job with no safety responsibilities. The police are paid £19k upon starting.

 

[highdyke]

@Dave1987. The disabled have to book 24 hours anyway! Check NRE!

I've tried now for months to get people to understand risk, productivity, try to get them to justified jobs, but I can see I have failed. Seriously, no point in continuing, I obviously overrated the abilities of many to actually understand the big picture. AlterEGo get's it, shame more don't.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I obviously overrated the abilities of many to actually understand the big picture. AlterEGo get's it, shame more don't.

I fully understand the big picture: the cost savings from sacking all the guards are deemed to exceed the safety benefits from having them there. When even a diamond-encrusted FUBAR like Kentish Town only costs the TOC a hundred grand, it's no wonder that the beancounters reach the conclusion they do.

I know exactly what the "big picture" is...I just think it is b*llocks.

 

[Dave1987]

@Dave1987. The disabled have to book 24 hours anyway! Check NRE!

I've tried now for months to get people to understand risk, productivity, try to get them to justified jobs, but I can see I have failed. Seriously, no point in continuing, I obviously overrated the abilities of many to actually understand the big picture. AlterEGo get's it, shame more don't.

And we know what you by "productivity" and "efficiency". We have seen in other industries what those words equate to. The government knows the railways are the last bastion of decent pay & conditions and really don't like that.
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I don't know, it's very difficult to follow the shouting match at the moment.

Even so, £20k seems about right for an entry-level customer-facing job with no safety responsibilities. The police are paid £19k upon starting.

You won't get the high calibre applicants you want for that kind of wage, especially with no job security.

 

[AlterEgo]

You won't get the high calibre applicants you want for that kind of wage, especially with no job security.

Why, what other jobs which require those skills pay lots more than that?

 

[Carlisle]

As has been repeatedly said on the DOO thread, things change. ASLEF did agree with DOO in the 80s and 90s, when trains were shorter and quieter. Now they don't.
.

If they can make and win a solid case to the safety authorities for the above then fine ,but we know full well they haven't as yet done anything of the sort , they're merely trying to impose a decision they've taken at a conference in partnership with the RMT on the whole of the railway regardless of the actual facts, by threat and intimidation of industrial action, that is not the way any successful industrial relations strategy I know of actually works

 

[KTHV]

Hasn't highdyke said that future OBS could be knocked down to circa £20k in the future. Yup sounds like "modernisation". That would put them squarely into the poverty area in the South with house prices like they are.

I'm sure they can double up doing the Trolley Service to earn a few more pennies

 

[Phil.]

@Dave1987. The disabled have to book 24 hours anyway! Check NRE!

I've tried now for months to get people to understand risk, productivity, try to get them to justified jobs, but I can see I have failed. Seriously, no point in continuing, I obviously overrated the abilities of many to actually understand the big picture. AlterEGo gets it, shame more don't.

Don't worry, I get it and like you have given up trying to explain.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they can make and win a solid case to the safety authorities for the above then fine

Who are "the safety authorities" and how does one "win a solid case" to them?

"We are drivers and we don't agree with DOO anymore"?

 

[Dave1987]

Don't worry, I get it and like you have given up trying to explain.

Ow I get it! It's clear for those that can't "name their price" that they should "prove their worth" or face the dole. And whenever "modernisation" and "efficiency" is mentioned I can't help but think of the Amazon delivery drivers who are set ridiculous targets for how many parcels they are required to deliver in a day for pitiful wages.

 

[SkinnyDave]

If they can make and win a solid case to the safety authorities for the above then fine ,but we know full well they haven't as yet done anything of the sort , they're merely trying to impose a decision they've taken at a conference in partnership with the RMT on the whole of the railway regardless of the actual facts, by threat and intimidation of industrial action, that is not the way any successful industrial relations strategy I know of actually works

Do you drive a train?

 

[W230]

Seriously, no point in continuing, I obviously overrated the abilities of many to actually understand the big picture. AlterEGo get's it, shame more don't.

Good sir (or madam), may I request what you do for a living/earnings?

You asked (pages ago I think) whether train drivers were working class. Some are some aren't, if class distinctions really exist now as they did then. Certainly the background of newer drivers is far more varied than the old school.

In terms of making the railways more efficient, I would be interested to hear your ideas (genuinely). My TOC is already DOO and very very busy. I've never driven a train with a guard on so I don't have anything to compare it to but I can see both sides of the argument. Certainly at many stations in off peak times DOO seems fine to me but at many stations in peak hours it really isn't ok. Irrespective of this, aside from DOO, i'm not sure what 'efficiency' (read: ca$h savings) can be made? Close all ticket offices? Get rid of platform staff.? We could get rid of everyone I suppose but not sure it would function efficiently (I could be wrong of course).

I'd be interested to know what drivers earn on the continent actually no idea if it's about the same in terms of actual earnings/average earning in society as often when the slary 'discussion' comes up it's in terms of how many police officers/hospitals it buys!!

I do think the problems of us having very aged infrastructure, years of chronic underspending and very frequent services don't help. Also I believe (please do correct me someone) that the amount financed by the government in proportion to that of the fare payer is far less in the UK than the rest of Europe. Though i'm not sure cheaper tickets would help the current situation.

It's easy for one to define their own salary as justified in their own eyes but often more difficult to justify it to others. But then should anyone really have to. It's interesting how often comments about pay come up. Maybe there has always been an obsession with how much other people earn and now i'm older i've finally noticed it. I heard something on the radio the other day which said that in America people openly discuss how much they earn but that in the UK we see that sort of discussion as inappropriate...

 

[Tio Terry]

Who are "the safety authorities" and how does one "win a solid case" to them?

"We are drivers and we don't agree with DOO anymore"?

The safety authorities are the DfT and the ORR.

System and Operational Safety is governed by the Common Safety Method - Risk Estimation and Assessment (CSM-REA) regulations. This is a EU Directive enshrined in UK law by the Railways and Other Guided Transport (Safety) Regulations 2006 (ROGS). This requires that any changes to either Infrastructure or Operational systems be risk assessed to show that all risks are reduced to at least a tolerable level. There are three ways of doing this, firstly by applying a recognised Code of Practice, secondly by use of a reference system which has been used in a similar situation before and has a good safety record, thirdly by carrying out an Explicit Risk Estimation (ERE).

It looks like the third system would apply to the introduction of DOO with longer trains than are normally used.

My personal view is that to prove their point the Unions should commission somebody independent - there are a number of company's registered that have the competence to undertake such an ERE - so that they can prove their case with the DfT.

 

[Carlisle]

My personal view is that to prove their point the Unions should commission somebody independent - there are a number of company's registered that have the competence to undertake such an ERE - so that they can prove their case with the DfT.

Sounds a very good idea, apart from the risk of a conclusion that didnt categorically endorse the unions strong opinions undermining the strength of further industrial action

 

[EM2]

You talk about more efficiency for Drivers yet can't name a single one!

Doh! It's called DOO!!!!!

How is making drivers do more work making them more efficient?