Railways that are franchised by the government are a public service in my view, regardless of whether the service is delivered by a private sector franchisee (but I don't consider Open Access operators' services to be a public service)
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Christmas/New Year rail travel
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I suspect it would be as cost effective as running a service for the whole country on any of the non xmas bank holidays (probably more so since they tend to have a better than skeleton service anyway).
Different countries have different traditions, cultures etc. I am not convinced by the argument that just because it happens in Belgium (or wherever) it should happen here.
How far should we take that argument?
But this doesn't answer the point that if the majority are going to retail parks, as evidenced by the difficulty to find a parking space in one, then what use will a train be?
That is precisely why I don't agree with increasing the subsidy to provide services that won;t pay their way on oen particular day! If they do, fine, if not, there are other things that should be prioritised. Particularly in these cost cutting times.
The concept of something being run as a 'public service' is regarded as rather quanit and old fashioned by many of those in power. Look at how the Post Office network has been cut. If it doesn't make money, or doesn;t make enough money, it's gone. Even the NHS, possibly the last bastion of the traditional public service, is under threat.
I really do doubt that the majority of rail suers, never mind the general public as a whole, would regard running loss making trains on Boxing Day as a valuable use of public funds! But I could be wrong, of course, as I haven't done a proper scientific survey!
Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree with that argument. I'm inclined to say that if a route justifies a subsidised service on the other days (including bank holidays) it probably justifies one on boxing day as well.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Just to be clear I'm suggesting something fairly basic, certainly not all lines but maybe a concentration on routes serving big cities/ airports/ shopping centres like Meadowhall and the Metro Centre - nor am I suggesting staff are not compensated for working Boxing Day.
Maybe I was being too metaphorical - I was meaning that a significant number of people in the UK treat Boxing Day like they treat a normal Sunday - a day to shop or watch football etc - its the busiest shopping day of the year so it's not just retail parks, it's city centres etc too.
Railways are about the only thing that has this 48 hour shut down - I'm not arguing for Christmas Day trains, but Boxing Day is such a busy day nowadays it seems quite quaint to ignore it.
As you say yourself, how far should we take that argument?
It all depends on how well they were used, which I guess neither of us know (and I doubt we'll ever know, because I don't think we'll ever see TOCs running on Boxing Day - I think things are too entrenched), but it's only one day (even at Double Time) so I doubt the losses would be enormous - compared to the year round costs of running the Heart Of Wales Line/ overnight TPE services/ Cornish branches in Winter/ heavily subsidised PTE services etc... would the majority of passengers/ general public be happy to subsidise these if asked? Dunno.
Maybe I was being too metaphorical - I was meaning that a significant number of people in the UK treat Boxing Day like they treat a normal Sunday - a day to shop or watch football etc - its the busiest shopping day of the year so it's not just retail parks, it's city centres etc too.
Railways are about the only thing that has this 48 hour shut down - I'm not arguing for Christmas Day trains, but Boxing Day is such a busy day nowadays it seems quite quaint to ignore it.
As you say yourself, how far should we take that argument?
It all depends on how well they were used, which I guess neither of us know (and I doubt we'll ever know, because I don't think we'll ever see TOCs running on Boxing Day - I think things are too entrenched), but it's only one day (even at Double Time) so I doubt the losses would be enormous - compared to the year round costs of running the Heart Of Wales Line/ overnight TPE services/ Cornish branches in Winter/ heavily subsidised PTE services etc... would the majority of passengers/ general public be happy to subsidise these if asked? Dunno.
YorkshireRider
Member
I personally do not see the attraction of shopping on boxing day but if the demand is there then i suppose local trains (not intercity!) could run, subject to engineering work, voluntary overtime at treble time for staff. This rate should get enough staff willing to work to come up with a decent service between 9am and 7pm.
I think we actually do agree on most things, these are probably the sort of routes that would be profitable, or at least cover their direct costs.
Around here the city and town centres are pretty deserted, as most of the big stores moved to the outskirts years ago. All that is left in the centre are things like banks, charity shops and pound stores, all of which will be closed. Just like Sundays really, around these parts anyway.
As I said, I am not against Boxing Day trains, if they can be justified, and no member of staff is forced to work it against their contractual terms.
A good place might be the term 'socially necessary' that you used yourself! It may be difficult to agree on a precise definition of what is socially necessary, but how many people overall would consider a Boxing Day trip to a sporting event or a shopping trip essential? I don't know the answer myself, but I remain of the opinion that a stronger argument for the introduction of more Boxing Day services would be for those who have to work on that day to be able tog et to work and back, rather than leisure travel.
Nor me! But I would put up a very passionate defence for rural services to be subsidised, rather than subsidising a Newcastle Utd fan to go to Manchester to see a game of football. I suppose its a matter of persepctive, which is probably highly influenced by your individual interests, where you live, and whether you want to travel by train on Boxing Day or not!
(The football reference is not intended to be taken literally - I have no axe to grind against any particular club or its fans, it's just meant to be an example of what Boxing Day travel might take place).
I agree that the costs of running services would probably be quite small compared tot he overall costs of running the network. Part of the problem with this debate is that no one can really be sure of what the costs would be, what routes or flows might cover these costs, and how much income might result from various levels of service. There are just too many unknowns.
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I will go so far as to say that I can see the merit in your line of reasoning there!
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Yes, if the demand is there and there are sufficient volunteers, though I would cut the times back to have a later start.
I think we actually do agree on most things, these are probably the sort of routes that would be profitable, or at least cover their direct costs.
Around here the city and town centres are pretty deserted, as most of the big stores moved to the outskirts years ago. All that is left in the centre are things like banks, charity shops and pound stores, all of which will be closed. Just like Sundays really, around these parts anyway.
As I said, I am not against Boxing Day trains, if they can be justified, and no member of staff is forced to work it against their contractual terms.
A good place might be the term 'socially necessary' that you used yourself! It may be difficult to agree on a precise definition of what is socially necessary, but how many people overall would consider a Boxing Day trip to a sporting event or a shopping trip essential? I don't know the answer myself, but I remain of the opinion that a stronger argument for the introduction of more Boxing Day services would be for those who have to work on that day to be able tog et to work and back, rather than leisure travel.
Nor me! But I would put up a very passionate defence for rural services to be subsidised, rather than subsidising a Newcastle Utd fan to go to Manchester to see a game of football. I suppose its a matter of persepctive, which is probably highly influenced by your individual interests, where you live, and whether you want to travel by train on Boxing Day or not!
(The football reference is not intended to be taken literally - I have no axe to grind against any particular club or its fans, it's just meant to be an example of what Boxing Day travel might take place).
I agree that the costs of running services would probably be quite small compared tot he overall costs of running the network. Part of the problem with this debate is that no one can really be sure of what the costs would be, what routes or flows might cover these costs, and how much income might result from various levels of service. There are just too many unknowns.
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I will go so far as to say that I can see the merit in your line of reasoning there!
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Yes, if the demand is there and there are sufficient volunteers, though I would cut the times back to have a later start.
How late a start would it have to be to ensure a driver could have say 1 glass of fizz over lunch on Christmas Day and be safe to drive on Boxing Day?
Skimpot flyer
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Boxing Day may well be the busiest shopping day of the year, but I don't think it justifies running a rail service. As one poster rightly pointed out, most large retail parks are nowhere near a station anyway. There is also the practical aspect to consider: if one is shopping for, say, a super-duper 40" flat screen TV at "30% off", would you really carry it home on a train, even assuming the platform is right opposite the front of the store (and not over the footbridge, on the other side of the tracks) ?!!!
Have these fervent shoppers not heard of this thing called the internet ? If they really must feed their shopping addiction, and have no access to a car, perhaps they should acquaint themselves with amazon and let train drivers continue to enjoy their hard-earned Xmas break.
Have these fervent shoppers not heard of this thing called the internet ? If they really must feed their shopping addiction, and have no access to a car, perhaps they should acquaint themselves with amazon and let train drivers continue to enjoy their hard-earned Xmas break.
transmanche
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Ah, so it's the passenger's fault for wanting to travel...?
Well it would be much simpler to run the railway if there were no passengers...
I still haven't seen a satisfactory explanation for why the service is run down so early on the 24th, which is not a holiday day.
As I mentioned the last train from Leeds to Scarborough is at 18.12 instead of the usual 21.41. This isn't just trimming off the last service to allow for an early finish, it's chopping the last 3 hours off the timetable.
I wonder how many people who fly into the UK on the 24th might get a nasty shock when they try to make an onward journey?
As I mentioned the last train from Leeds to Scarborough is at 18.12 instead of the usual 21.41. This isn't just trimming off the last service to allow for an early finish, it's chopping the last 3 hours off the timetable.
I wonder how many people who fly into the UK on the 24th might get a nasty shock when they try to make an onward journey?
pitdiver
Member
Although I never worked on BR/NR I always thought that services finished early on the 24th to enable drivers/other staff to finish before midnight as if their hrs ran into the 25th the employing companies were play liable to pay a minimum 2-3 hrs pay at enhanced rates.
I think one day there will be and we'll see trains running a limited service on Boxing Day (then, if demand increases over time for people shopping, going to sporting events etc, it can increase accordingly).
I also expect that one day, the industry will see how many people are actually willing to work Christmas Day and - if paid sufficiently - will do so.. and measure against the likely revenue. That would take a few years to measure accurately, as well as advertising that trains run, Government/police campaigns to tell people to use public transport instead of driving (potentially drunk) etc.
Nobody should ever be made to work that day, and I can see why unions would resist any move on the basis that they would expect it to one day become part of a contract. If drivers don't want to work that day, it should never be included in their contract - but what's the harm in offering the work to those that - for a range of reasons - don't care for Christmas.
Also, many countries actually celebrate Christmas on Christmas Eve!
But if the rules are relaxed its the first thing the bosses will do. Speak to anyone that works in a big shop about Sunday trading, when it first came in, it was voluntary and handsomely paid (I got double time at Boots) and then as time went on the benefits were eroded down, this meant the existing staff stopped doing it, what did the bosses do? Changed contracts to make it compulsory, starting with new people and then periodically whittling it down to the rest of the team.
People are already working long hours plus often they have to travel to/from their location (which is set at the whim of the bosses in many cases) giving them two days off in a row 1 month out of 12 really isn't too much to ask IMO.
Scarby-the best place to get a satisfactory explanation for your question may well back from the TOCs themselves.
dk1
Veteran Member
Im not driving a train on Christmas or Boxing Day for anyone. Shut the shops & re-schedule the kick-about footy games & there is then no need 
.
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I can see the plus of closing for two days, esp on a Network rail POV. 2 full days of fixing things.
As one of the few who are working boxing day on southern between Brighton and Vic it will be interesting to see how many people will be out there. I once worked news years eve, past midnight and found most trains to be dead. People where either at home or at parties, some trains were lucky to get into double figs. New years day is dead until about 10.
As for Christmas Eve, someone asked why the run down. Well for one, as most offices, shops shut early, as well as pubs as the night wares on, it gets less and less passengers, and the later it goes on, the later it takes to put everything to bed. Once the last passenger has left the last train, we dont just shut up shop, we have to put the trains back in the depot, clean up, it takes time. Also network rail wants to get out there with their stuff. People travelling will have checked for the last trains and will be ready. I doubt many people will be put out, and if so they should have checked. If I was going somewhere before a major holiday like this, I would be checking these things out. Even things like the motorways wind down as the night goes on, I've seen services on motorways that are petrol only by about 8 and on the A1 shut completly and only the odd car.
Someone said we are not a relgious society anymore, that may be true, but most people celebrate christmas, even if its just for presents, family, turkey, wine. Very few in this country wants to go down the USA route of going shopping, and remember in the states they have Thanksgiving a few weeks before where everything shuts down.
Even a few years ago, things were shut on Boxing day and I can imagine any service that we run would only be busy as long as the shops are open, ie no one in the morning or evening and be busy in mainly on direction only, ie AM up to london, PM back down from London. There might be jams on the roads, but it will only people popping out to do shopping, esp to out of town places like IKEA etc.
During the days in between, we run a Saturday service, but until around 10 the trains are dead as well with more than a few of the early trains being just me and driver.
SJ
As a side note we are running a bus service on xmas day between Gatwick and Victoria.
As one of the few who are working boxing day on southern between Brighton and Vic it will be interesting to see how many people will be out there. I once worked news years eve, past midnight and found most trains to be dead. People where either at home or at parties, some trains were lucky to get into double figs. New years day is dead until about 10.
As for Christmas Eve, someone asked why the run down. Well for one, as most offices, shops shut early, as well as pubs as the night wares on, it gets less and less passengers, and the later it goes on, the later it takes to put everything to bed. Once the last passenger has left the last train, we dont just shut up shop, we have to put the trains back in the depot, clean up, it takes time. Also network rail wants to get out there with their stuff. People travelling will have checked for the last trains and will be ready. I doubt many people will be put out, and if so they should have checked. If I was going somewhere before a major holiday like this, I would be checking these things out. Even things like the motorways wind down as the night goes on, I've seen services on motorways that are petrol only by about 8 and on the A1 shut completly and only the odd car.
Someone said we are not a relgious society anymore, that may be true, but most people celebrate christmas, even if its just for presents, family, turkey, wine. Very few in this country wants to go down the USA route of going shopping, and remember in the states they have Thanksgiving a few weeks before where everything shuts down.
Even a few years ago, things were shut on Boxing day and I can imagine any service that we run would only be busy as long as the shops are open, ie no one in the morning or evening and be busy in mainly on direction only, ie AM up to london, PM back down from London. There might be jams on the roads, but it will only people popping out to do shopping, esp to out of town places like IKEA etc.
During the days in between, we run a Saturday service, but until around 10 the trains are dead as well with more than a few of the early trains being just me and driver.
SJ
As a side note we are running a bus service on xmas day between Gatwick and Victoria.
tsr
Established Member
Not all of the later services on NYE are dead - I used a total of five trains on NYE evening last year, and spent rather longer at stations. The Tube and EMT were very busy. Southern and GatEx were, I would say, at their normal levels of passenger use. The only quiet service I used was a local LM stopper. A friend reported that FCC was experiencing average passenger traffic. FGW seemed to be "as normal" in terms of suburban traffic.
A year or two ago, FCC had problems with drivers that resulted in a lot of New Year trains being cancelled due to no member of staff available, and the ones that did run had messages saying 'delayed due to unexpectedly large passenger numbers' (or similar). So, I guess we'll never know the real demand.
It's funny that many drivers would NEVER work Christmas Day, as if nobody should work then - yet it's fine for Network Rail staff to use the day to do maintenance! What if they thought the same way and never wanted to work holidays or overnight?!
It's funny that many drivers would NEVER work Christmas Day, as if nobody should work then - yet it's fine for Network Rail staff to use the day to do maintenance! What if they thought the same way and never wanted to work holidays or overnight?!
Drivers say they wouldn't work, but I think if discussions were started and the money was agreeable, it'd happen.
I can't see Christmas Day having a service, at least not in the forseeable future. I don't think there's much justification for Boxing Day trains, let alone Christmas Day.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
they do - even on Boxing Day.
I have used them many times and a very good atmospehere there has been on baord - until about 17:00!
That has also been my understanding too. The TOC's (and Br before them) want to ensure that everything is done, dusted and put away before the midnight hour.
I don't think that all drivers would refuse to work. I'm not sure how many would be agreeable, ot would probably depend on the compensation agreed. Some might be happy with enhanced payments of a certian level, others might prefer a lower level of enhancement and a day off in lieu, or even a small enhancement and two days in lieu!
Yes, I think it very much depends on the area. In this area, services would be pretty quiet on NYE, as people generally prefer to stay in or go out locally, as with Christmas Eve. I imagine in larger conurbations there would be more demand, not just because of the bigge rpopulation, but also because there ar emore places to go to and thigns to do!
E16 Cyclist
Member
Well i'm actually a driver who this year will be working my 4th christmas day in 5 years so thats not necessarily true.
Anyway that wasn't my main point, what a lot of people are forgetting is the christmas break is the ideal time to do heavy engineering work and maybe thats the reason why theres not more services operating boxing day, and therefore for operational reasons it doesn't make commercial sense to operate a partial service and then have to put in place buses etc to complete peoples journeys.
On lines that are open maybe a compramise could be reached and for example only operate trains between 1200 and 2000 for example. That way people could visit who they wanted or shop where they wanted and the railway could survive using people who volunteer to work that day. Forcing people to work isn't the way forward you only have to look at the annual dispute on the tube to see that.
Nobody should ever be forced to work, but my point has always been that I expect enough people would volunteer to run a limited service.
Some people really do regard Christmas Day as the one day they'd never work in their entire lifetime, but that doesn't mean every driver thinks the same way.
There's one difference though; there are only so many drivers and so there's no guarantee of every TOC/route having enough. It's not like a bus/coach operator that can hire in anyone with a suitable license, or taxi drivers etc.
Some people really do regard Christmas Day as the one day they'd never work in their entire lifetime, but that doesn't mean every driver thinks the same way.
There's one difference though; there are only so many drivers and so there's no guarantee of every TOC/route having enough. It's not like a bus/coach operator that can hire in anyone with a suitable license, or taxi drivers etc.
It's not just drivers though, but the myriad of other staff required to run the service.
dk1
Veteran Member
We have a night shift on Boxing day. Double time and an extra days leave are the usual offering which does not intice many to volunteer.
It's not just shopping though. People have sports fixtures, friends and relatives to visit, people going home after visiting friends and relatives. Christmas day is the only day when most people stay in.
Hellfire
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I'm afraid I can't buy the shopping argument. It wouldn't do anyone any harm for the shops to be shut on Christmas Day and Boxing Day then we wouldn't have to worry about transport.
Shop workers, as well as train staff might be glad to have a couple of days off on the trot. As someone has pointed out, when shops first started opening on Sundays and Bank Holidays there was enhanced payment for staff, that's pretty much gone.
Let's face it there is plenty of time to shop and many people now take the whole of the time between Christmas and New Year off.
Of course emergency services will still have to work over Christmas but no one actually NEEDS a train when most work places are closed anyway. Those employers who do operate 24/7, as mine does, can make other arrangements to get essential staff in
Shop workers, as well as train staff might be glad to have a couple of days off on the trot. As someone has pointed out, when shops first started opening on Sundays and Bank Holidays there was enhanced payment for staff, that's pretty much gone.
Let's face it there is plenty of time to shop and many people now take the whole of the time between Christmas and New Year off.
Of course emergency services will still have to work over Christmas but no one actually NEEDS a train when most work places are closed anyway. Those employers who do operate 24/7, as mine does, can make other arrangements to get essential staff in
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