Cities in need of an extra station.

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YorkshireBear

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So, London obviously, along with Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool to an extent, and i am sure there are others. All have more than one city centre station.
How long till other cities require another major central station, Sheffield? Leeds? Newcastle? Cardiff? Bristol? And again im sure there are others.
And can it actually be done in these cases?
 
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Anvil1984

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This is where I get shouted down but possibly Leeds could do with a couple of low level stations. One in the current station and one in the City Centre somewhere for the units coming in from "the triangle" to use. This could allow some of the main stations platforms to be freed up. However as always money will stop this ans probably the geography of the area
 

John55

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So, London obviously, along with Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool to an extent, and i am sure there are others. All have more than one city centre station.
How long till other cities require another major central station, Sheffield? Leeds? Newcastle? Cardiff? Bristol? And again im sure there are others.
And can it actually be done in these cases?

Surely this is the last thing anyone would want to do. One of the great failings of 19th century railway companies in the UK was the failure to develop "Union" stations as they are called in the US.

Do you want to reproduce the situation in Bradford where two stations face each other across the city centre requiring a significant walk from one to the other? At least in Birmingham the Midland & LNWR built stations which could be merged into one 100 years later but sadly the GWR ended up a few hundred yards away.

One problem with HS2 is the apparent need to build additional stations in Manchester, Birmingham etc which will not improve interchange but in fact make it worse. This could for example mean that someone travelling from Shrewsbury to London via HS2 may have to leave Shrewsbury 20 minutes earlier to take a train from Curzon St which gets him/her to London 20 minutes earlier. So total gain - nothing.

If your intension is to improve distribution around city centres as in Liverpool with Loop and Link that is a good idea for the local networks.
 

mister-sparky

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most of those places mention already had 2nd or 3rd stations. but were closed years ago. ie Sheffield Victoria, Leeds Central, Manchester Central & Exchange etc
 

Eagle

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Do you mean cities in need of more stations in their suburbs?

Coventry definitely could use a couple more; the proposed one at the Arena, as well as one in Radford, one in Binley and one in Stivichall. That would be a pretty decent suburban network.
 

YorkshireBear

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Example leeds, the current station is eventually going to become too full to cope, it looks very difficult to expand so one of the only options is going to be a new station. If it was my choice, i would rip down offices and make it a huge station, but i doubt that could happen.
 

jopsuk

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Ideally the cities you list with multiple major stations would have one, even bigger, station instead.
 

John55

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Example leeds, the current station is eventually going to become too full to cope, it looks very difficult to expand so one of the only options is going to be a new station. If it was my choice, i would rip down offices and make it a huge station, but i doubt that could happen.

The problem at Leeds is lots of local trains mostly approaching from the west due to geography and railway history. There used to be 5 (I think) stations in Leeds all except the LNWR/NER station being terminal stations facing west.

If you want to throw a lot of money at the problem why not do what Anvil1984 suggests and take most of the local trains out of the current station and build a loop under the city centre with an underground station under the existing station.

This clears lots of trains out of the ground level station and takes passengers where they actually want to go. The current station is on the edge of the city centre because of the problems of a surface railway in urban areas rather like Manchester where most railways were built around the centre not to it.
 

Ivo

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Bristol could do with a more central station, but for such a scheme to work heavy rail is pretty much out of the question. I know of a plan for a Metro system that existed in the late 70s (as shown here; I have also seen details of this on paper courtesy of Mojo), but now such a scheme - while certainly ideal - would be difficult at best. The alternative is a tram system between the city centre and Temple Meads, which I honestly believe is viable. It would be too much for just the centre though.

Wells could do with a station...

Why? It is already well-linked by buses to all notable settlements around it. A better link to Castle Cary wouldn't go amiss though.
 

WelshBluebird

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Why? It is already well-linked by buses to all notable settlements around it. A better link to Castle Cary wouldn't go amiss though.

To be honest, the area around mid somerset (including wells and shepton mallet) could do with having their old railways back, but of course that will never happen. I lived in Shepton Mallet last year while on a job placement, and the time it took to get to either Bristol or Bath was just stupid. Pretty much 2 hours by bus, compared to around a half hour drive.

And defiantly agree with the link to Castle Cary. At least last year the only option was to get the bus to shepton mallet, and then the bus to castle cary? It was really annoying for me as that bus (at least the times of the day I caught it) got into castle cary just after to train to Exeter left. It was only a case of 2 minutes (which meant I actually caught the train a few times as it was running late).
 

Ivo

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To be honest, the area around mid somerset (including wells and shepton mallet) could do with having their old railways back, but of course that will never happen. I lived in Shepton Mallet last year while on a job placement, and the time it took to get to either Bristol or Bath was just stupid. Pretty much 2 hours by bus, compared to around a half hour drive.

And defiantly agree with the link to Castle Cary. At least last year the only option was to get the bus to shepton mallet, and then the bus to castle cary? It was really annoying for me as that bus (at least the times of the day I caught it) got into castle cary just after to train to Exeter left. It was only a case of 2 minutes (which meant I actually caught the train a few times as it was running late).

I think there is a case for reopening the route to Radstock, but that's about it. If the existing route was reopened, the best bet in my opinion would be to provide an additional line between Frome and the Radstock route (~300m would be required), and then have an hourly shuttle between Westbury and Radstock via Frome. They could even provide a second station in Frome, on North Parade, given the current station is poorly located. Under normal circumstances though, I would not even consider suggesting Frome for this thread! :lol:

Otherwise, there should be direct bus services between Shepton Mallet and Bristol, but all that would be needed would be for the 379 to be improved (again). Truth be told though, I think it would be difficult to provide an effective link to Castle Cary. Reopening Somerton would be easier, and would give Glastonbury and Street easier access to the network as well.
 

swt_passenger

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Don't really see any need for Newcastle to be included in this debate. It's the original example of a city centre station where they DID provide a combined station for all the local companies on one site.
 

tbtc

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Surely this is the last thing anyone would want to do. One of the great failings of 19th century railway companies in the UK was the failure to develop "Union" stations as they are called in the US.

Do you want to reproduce the situation in Bradford where two stations face each other across the city centre requiring a significant walk from one to the other? At least in Birmingham the Midland & LNWR built stations which could be merged into one 100 years later but sadly the GWR ended up a few hundred yards away.

One problem with HS2 is the apparent need to build additional stations in Manchester, Birmingham etc which will not improve interchange but in fact make it worse. This could for example mean that someone travelling from Shrewsbury to London via HS2 may have to leave Shrewsbury 20 minutes earlier to take a train from Curzon St which gets him/her to London 20 minutes earlier. So total gain - nothing.

If your intension is to improve distribution around city centres as in Liverpool with Loop and Link that is a good idea for the local networks.

I agree.

Leeds is a very busy station, but a lot of the trains using it are thirty-forty metres long - apart from the London services few are over a hundred metres in length. Rather than building a separate station, we could just increase the minimum length of trains and deal with capacity that way.
 

John55

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Don't really see any need for Newcastle to be included in this debate. It's the original example of a city centre station where they DID provide a combined station for all the local companies on one site.

I am not sure about the use of "all" the local companies. I thought the NER had a pretty solid monopoly in Newcastle!

More seriously Newcastle is a good example of what could happen in Leeds and elsewhere. Take the local trains out of the main station (but maintain interchange) and there is then room for regional and long distance trains.
 

exile

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The ideal is either to have local trains crossing the city centre at street level or underground. Examples:-
Paris (RER) London (Thameslink and - eventually - Crosslink). Manchester - metrolink. Liverpool - Merseyrail. Glasgow - Central and Queen St low level. Newcastle - metro. Sheffield - Tram. Birmingham - New St and Snow Hill.

The odd one out of our major cities is clearly Leeds. The cross-city line passes to the south of the city centre - and Leeds/Bradford is the largest urban area in Europe with no rail-based rapid transit system.
 

lancastrian

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So, London obviously, along with Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool to an extent, and i am sure there are others. All have more than one city centre station.
How long till other cities require another major central station, Sheffield? Leeds? Newcastle? Cardiff? Bristol? And again im sure there are others.
And can it actually be done in these cases?

Well lets go through them one at a time.

Sheffield: They used to have two stations the current one Midland, and the former Great Central Railway one called Victoria. This was closed along with the short sighted closure of the Woodhead route. Although having all the services based on one central station is actually beneficial for Sheffield.

Leeds: Well Leeds used to have three stations, the current Leeds Station is actually a merger of two of them. First the main through part which was the LNWR & NER Joint Station, called Leeds New. The current terminal platforms are the reopened and reduced Leeds Wellington Station, which was the Midland Railway station. The third one was a joint station between four railways. It was called Leeds Central, joint between the LYR, LNWR, NER & GNR. The platforma were quite short and it was very cramped.

Yes Leeds does need enlarging, but it would be better if the could run the services through Leeds rather than terminating them there. A reversing platform at East Gorforth would be helpful, plus if there was any money spare, reopening the line to Weatherby would be much better than spending great sums on Leeds City Station for limited return

Newcastle: Basically there has only been one station in Newcstle, it is very central and there is no need for a second station

Cardiff: This city actually has two stations already, Central & Queen Street, although there is a need to enlarge Queen Street, there is no real need for any more main cities stations in Cardiff

Bristol: Well Bristol has only ever had the one station which was joint between the Midland & Great Western Railways. I don't think that it is possible for a more central station to be built without rediculous expense.

I would be too worried about trying to get second stations for these five cities, I am sure that most of us could come up with Cities & Towns which could do with a first station.

Some of my choices are:-

  • Frazerburgh
  • Peterhead
  • St. Andrews
  • Hawick
  • Kirkcudbright
  • Oswestry
  • Brecon
  • Ilfracombe
  • Torrington
  • Radstock
  • Wells
  • Tavistock
  • Okehampton
  • Market Weighton
  • Ripon

I am sure that others will come up with additional places.
 

swt_passenger

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I am not sure about the use of "all" the local companies. I thought the NER had a pretty solid monopoly in Newcastle!

According to my info the NER was formed in 1854, but Central Station was opened in 1851.

Newcastle Corporation had been planning for a Central station during the 1840s, it was intended at that stage to provide facilities for the Newcastle and Carlisle, Newcastle and North Shields, Newcastle and Berwick, and the Newcastle and Darlington Junction stations all on one site.

Obviously the various mergers were going on in parallel, and the NER came about pretty quickly, but the station still predates it by a few years, and on opening the Newcastle and Carlisle was still a separate company with their own offices and facilities in the station, until they merged in 1861...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That came much later than the station...
 
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Ivo

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Some of my choices are:-

  • Radstock
  • Wells
  • Tavistock
  • Okehampton

As I said before, I can just about understand Radstock (largely on account of existing infrastructure and minimal distance), and Tavistock is set to gain a new station anyway; meanwhile, it could be argued that Okehampton does have a station. But, I ask again - why Wells?
 

YorkshireBear

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In reference to people saying newcastle shouldn't be included. Note that when i started the thread it was a question (indicated by the question mark) and not me saying that any of those cities needed it desperately. In the case of newcastle i have very much overlooked the metro :)

And tbtc, i completely agree, but were facing a problem that for example, airedale lines cant take more than 4 cars, neither really can the harrogate line or many of the other local lines in the area. Also P17, it couldnt take two 4 car trains, which would mess up the pathing for services towards woodlesford, (easy solution, build proposed P18).

I want a light rail system in leeds (or indeed an underground loop) but i doubt it will ever get passed.
 

tbtc

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In reference to people saying newcastle shouldn't be included. Note that when i started the thread it was a question (indicated by the question mark) and not me saying that any of those cities needed it desperately. In the case of newcastle i have very much overlooked the metro :)

And tbtc, i completely agree, but were facing a problem that for example, airedale lines cant take more than 4 cars, neither really can the harrogate line or many of the other local lines in the area. Also P17, it couldnt take two 4 car trains, which would mess up the pathing for services towards woodlesford, (easy solution, build proposed P18).

I want a light rail system in leeds (or indeed an underground loop) but i doubt it will ever get passed.

The trouble with light rail is that its much better suited for journeys within the city boundaries. There aren't really any Leeds services suited to a "tram" (e.g. Skipton to Leeds really requires a proper train). It's not like Manchester (which had shorter distance routes, esp pre-Metrolink).
 

YorkshireBear

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The trouble with light rail is that its much better suited for journeys within the city boundaries. There aren't really any Leeds services suited to a "tram" (e.g. Skipton to Leeds really requires a proper train). It's not like Manchester (which had shorter distance routes, esp pre-Metrolink).

I thought the orignial proposal was quite good, running it up towards otley past the university. Very busy crowded bus services operate up there.

I agree nothing on the scale of metrolink or tyne and wear would make any sense.

Always comes across to me that there is a lot of free land around leeds station. But not where it needs to be, realistically it could do with 4 tracking out to neville hill and having more through platforms. Although apprently network rail are looking at turning 13/14 into 1 or two through platforms.
 

142094

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Newcastle did have (well, still does) a fairly major station before the Metro came in - Manors (North and East). Although it was a bit out of the way, it still had a decent amount of services.

One thing in common is that a lot of the large cities that are currently experiencing a lack of capacity at their main stations historically had others. Manchester is probably the best example, and unfortunately the closing of two of the large termini is causing problems at present.
 

tbtc

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I thought the orignial proposal was quite good, running it up towards otley past the university. Very busy crowded bus services operate up there.

I agree nothing on the scale of metrolink or tyne and wear would make any sense

However that wouldn't replace any (existing) services at Leeds City Station.

I guess it depends on whether you are talking about a new station to deal with trams or to take existing train services away from the current one (i.e. you could build a new line through central Leeds linking the Harrogate/ Wharfdale/ Airedale lines past Leeds City Station past a new HS2 station at Crown Point and south to the Castleford/ Wakefield Kirkgate lines (maybe with a P&R at Stourton).

As a totally different idea, what about a new four track station in Leeds where the existing line (east of Leeds City Station, on the route towards Neville Hill) crosses the A61? You would access the eastern end of the city centre (Bus Station, Quarry Hill etc), it would allow the faster trains to overtake local ones, it could act as a Leodensian equivalent of Manchester Oxford Road.
 

142094

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There used to be a station there at Marsh Lane. There is quite a large area of land for a station where the permanent way siding is. The only problem is that very few trains from the east terminate at Leeds - just about everything goes through. Really what is needed is a station to the west to handle all the terminating services.
 

Cherry_Picker

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Isn't this thread putting the cart before the horse somewhat? Surely the point of a new station in a city centre would be because it is supporting a new network of lines that would go into it? Yes, there are places which had multiple stations which have since been merged or demolished, but everybody seems to think that an expansion of the current station is the best way to go. Therefore I guess the best case for a city needing a new major station in the city centre lies with one ruled out in the OP, and that would be Birmingham for when HS2 comes to town. Luckily there is a big Curzon Street shaped hole just waiting to be filled.
 
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