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City Night Lines in the bin

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theblackwatch

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Not a great shock, bus disappointing nevertheless. I've found them handy as a way of getting from one part of Germany to another without it taking up a large chunk of the day (and it save's on a night's hotel accommodation!). Just over a week ago I did a Koln-Dresden move - left Koln around 22.30 and into Dresden just after 07.00, both quite sociable. I imagine on an ICE it would arrive at Dresden around 04.00-05.00, nice....
 

317666

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A real shame but indeed no great surprise. Agreed with theblackwatch about them being useful for saving time, although the horrendous punctuality does make planning onward connections difficult.
 

theblackwatch

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A real shame but indeed no great surprise. Agreed with theblackwatch about them being useful for saving time, although the horrendous punctuality does make planning onward connections difficult.

The punctuality applies to many IC services in Germany, not just overnights! Amazingly, the one I did earlier this month arrived at Dresden spot on time.
 

Jordy

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Yes this is a shame, but as others have said no real surprise given the decline in recent years. The CNLs were vital for my InterRail in the summer, I'm sure any future trips will become more awkward - either having to waste a travel day just travelling through a country or spending the night sitting on a 'normal' train (no thanks!)
 

30907

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There is speculation that ÖBB will take on the various routes serving Munich - their Italian services already combine with DB trains, and their Düsseldorf and Hamburg routes have plenty of capacity and could easily be rerouted or have a second portion. And ÖBB are known to be on the lookout for newer sleepers.

Whether the Zurich services or the Jan Kiepura will survive with new operators is another matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The punctuality applies to many IC services in Germany, not just overnights! Amazingly, the one I did earlier this month arrived at Dresden spot on time.

True, but CNL became known for delays measured in hours.
 

Quakkerillo

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On issue I'd say is that quality varied greatly on their services.
Munich-Venice. Avoid at all cost. Learnt it the hard way.
Other services I used have been quite nice, albeit sometimes annoyingly buys during summertime with people without tickets sleeping in the hallways.

As someone mentioned before; interrail. During summertime, loads of people use interrail to use the trains, and their pay isn't directly flowing to the CNL as such. But I'd say that without CNL, interrailing may get a bit harder, and some might even avoid it, as it was nice and easy overnight lodging. I know it saved me costs for hotels quite some nights!
 

Tim R-T-C

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Does anyone have a full list of the DB run services? Might have to fit in a few in the summer.
 

30907

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http://www.bahn.de/p_en/view/offers/international/city-night-line.shtml?dbkanal_007=L01_S02_D002_KIN0014_Berater-Footer-CityNightLine_LZ01

Does anyone have a full list of the DB run services? Might have to fit in a few in the summer.

Ignoring the seasonal extensions, there's a group Amsterdam/Hamburg-Zurich/Munich which exchanges portions at Frankfurt, plus Zurich-Berlin/Prague, which are wholly DB stock except for the CD sleeper. Plus Cologne-Prague/Warsaw, and various routes from Munich onwards (not all CNL), which are more complicated!

IIRC one of the issues is that while the sleepers are modern, the couchettes are getting life expired and need replacing.
 

phil1960

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All to cease for 2017 timetable, no great shock I wouldn't think to many.

Some ICE and bus 'replacments' perhaps...enjoy.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...all-remaining-sleeper-trains.html?channel=524

May not be all bad news - read a few lines further into the article:

"Talks are already underway with Austrian Federal Railways (ÖBB) concerning the continuation of its overnight services.

DB may continue operating these trains on a contractual basis but would no longer have any commercial interest in the services beyond December 2016. Other private German rail operators may also take on this work if ÖBB is unable to reach an arrangement with DB."

Phil
 

Bletchleyite

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City Night Line

Indeed. To give a bit of a potted history, in the early 1990s all night trains running through Germany were run by a co-operation of the relevant national railways, with each's locomotive and crew taking over at the border (mostly). They were run using ageing, non-air-conditioned rolling stock. They were classified as either D-Zuege (Durchgangs-Schnellzug - corridored express train) or EuroNight (a slightly higher quality of rolling stock, being the night version of the higher quality EuroCity day trains).

Later in the 1990s, DB and SBB got together to fund a joint operation, CityNightLine (no spaces), which was intended to be a high-quality "hotel train" operation centred on services through Germany to Switzerland. Later on this expanded to others - there was one to Vienna I used once from Salzburg.

They did live up to the quality concept, and a very pleasant "bistro" restaurant car with meals not dissimilar to the Scottish lounge car was provided. I recall enjoying breakfast as we went along the Rhine on one pleasurable occasion coming back from a summer crewing at the Zellhof Scout campsite in Salzburg, and wondering why anyone would ever want to fly. They operated compulsory reservations even in the seats to prevent there being overcrowding, which wasn't unknown on DB night trains in the seats due to the heavy military service traffic. If I recall rightly they were "Globalpreiszuege", with only dedicated tickets valid. Not such a big thing now, but was then when international CIV/TCV through tickets were the norm.

Roughly parallel to this (in about 1999 or 2000) DB decided the mainly D-Zuege weren't up to the quality concept, so (vested in DB AutoZug GmbH) they decided to give the routes all an upgrade, creating DB NachtZug. This was a near copy of CityNightLine with refurbished, reliveried coaches (still non-aircon in the seats and couchettes) and some new sleepers including Comfortline double deckers. They also had a few Talgo sets with passive tilt, which made for an excellent night's sleep - very smooth, and longitudinal couchettes which really worked for me - to this day the only good night's kip I've ever had on a night train, and I've been on a few! DB NZ wasn't quite as good as CNL, but followed the same quality concept and did reasonably well. It also introduced Paris-Bruxelles-Berlin/Hamburg services good for connecting with E* (previously these ran via Liege).

Later, SBB decided to pull out of CNL, and standards dropped a bit. DB then decided to rebrand all their night trains as CNL (with spaces, i.e. City Night Line), merging the two concepts down to the level of DB NZ. Since then there have been progressive cuts to the network, the final nail in my view being the removal of restaurant cars - the only thing that in my view makes the Scottish sleepers civilised is the lounge car, and long may it remain.

All those cuts after cuts, together with the difficult-to-serve distributed demand in Germany and low-cost flights, followed by the coaches taking InterRail type traffic, has led to their demise. But in the times of the 1990s network which gave me some enjoyable little adventures while over in Germany for university, I'd never have believed the UK would have been the survivors of the European night train system.

A sad day, but not a surprising one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For anyone who can read German (Google Translate won't work with it, it gets blocked) this is roughly the state of play as of 2000.

https://www.test.de/filestore/t2000...2195-4136-90d7-ad32ed63d6d2-protectedfile.pdf
 
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phil1960

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I'd never have believed the UK would have been the survivors of the European night train system.

Still internal overnight services (many with mod-cons like showers etc.) in quite a few European countries that I doubt will be going any time soon - Norway, Sweden, Finland for example.

Yes, the future holds better in the UK as new stock is on order for the Caledonian routes. We'll see if the Penzance route lasts much longer.

Phil
 

deltic

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Be interesting to see if a new night time network of standard intercity services is developed. There is obviously considerable demand for overnight travel just not at the fares required for heavily staffed and low loadings of sleeper services
 

ainsworth74

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We'll see if the Penzance route lasts much longer.

Considering GWR and FGW have been running on a commercial basis as it wasn't in the Franchise specification (not sure about the Direct Award) and have invested in at least one refurbishment I'd not gamble on it going away any time soon.
 

AlexNL

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Be interesting to see if a new night time network of standard intercity services is developed.
The plan is to replace CNL services with night-time ICE's (some already operate) and IC buses on routes where demand is low.

Full-blown sleeper services under the DB brand will go away, though.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, the future holds better in the UK as new stock is on order for the Caledonian routes. We'll see if the Penzance route lasts much longer.

Arguably the Penzance route has more of a reason to be because of the relative lack of air competition. If the Scottish routes went[1], the airlines would easily take up the slack for those needing to arrive for a 9am meeting.

Assuming the CAF stock is good, it wouldn't totally surprise me to see GWR place a follow-on order to replace theirs. If they do, both are probably assured for at least 10 years.

[1] Except Fort Bill, for which the sleeper is the *only* viable way to have a weekend in the mountains from London with no time off work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The plan is to replace CNL services with night-time ICE's (some already operate) and IC buses on routes where demand is low.

I have wondered if some night Pendolinos[1] on the WCML would bring decent custom. I'm thinking of Liverpool, Manchester and Preston rather than Scotland.

[1] Or Voyagers - you could run a 15 car train and split it at Crewe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Considering GWR and FGW have been running on a commercial basis as it wasn't in the Franchise specification (not sure about the Direct Award) and have invested in at least one refurbishment I'd not gamble on it going away any time soon.

Really? Didn't know that - was it not a priced option? Surprised it has been made to pay, particularly as they charge a bit less than the Scottish one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The plan is to replace CNL services with night-time ICE's (some already operate) and IC buses on routes where demand is low.

There is suggestion that there will also be ICs, I guess using the new double-deck sets (as other ICs will become ICEs when the new EMUs come on stream, no doubt with a hefty fare increase). Indeed they've started to phase that in by double-entering the CNLs in HAFAS as ICs as well - though it's really patchy how it displays them. They have also removed the reservation requirement for seats on the CNLs by doing so.
 
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phil1960

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The plan is to replace CNL services with night-time ICE's (some already operate) and IC buses on routes where demand is low.

I'd expect the DB IC bus brand to expand for international routes. Gives a chance to experiment for new services without any long term commitment. Also the bus brand is sure to be popular with the likes of InterRail pass holders as all they'll need to pay for is a nominal seat reservation fee.

Phil
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd expect the DB IC bus brand to expand for international routes. Gives a chance to experiment for new services without any long term commitment. Also the bus brand is sure to be popular with the likes of InterRail pass holders as all they'll need to pay for is a nominal seat reservation fee.

IC Bus is an interesting concept - permanent bustitution in effect. I can think of parts of the UK that could do with that to fill gaps - not the half-hearted RailLinks stuff, a proper railway bus fully within the railway ticketing system with railway levels of comfort.
 

DaiGog

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I'd expect the DB IC bus brand to expand for international routes. Gives a chance to experiment for new services without any long term commitment. Also the bus brand is sure to be popular with the likes of InterRail pass holders as all they'll need to pay for is a nominal seat reservation fee.

A late IC Bus departure (around 2300-0000) from Brussels would be useful, connecting out of the teatime Eurostar departures from London. At present the latest one you can catch is 1501 for a rail connection into Germany via Brussels, and although the 1701 makes the bus to Duesseldorf from Brussels Nord, the connection is a bit tight.

A bus doing Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt Flug - Frankfurt Hbf with connections into ICE services to the south maybe?
 

Quakkerillo

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A late IC Bus departure (around 2300-0000) from Brussels would be useful, connecting out of the teatime Eurostar departures from London. At present the latest one you can catch is 1501 for a rail connection into Germany via Brussels, and although the 1701 makes the bus to Duesseldorf from Brussels Nord, the connection is a bit tight.

A bus doing Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt Flug - Frankfurt Hbf with connections into ICE services to the south maybe?

There is an IC bus at 21:00 departing from Brussels North to Düsseldorf, where it arrives at 23:45.
That's the best you can do; late-night train services in Belgium are not going to happen soon.
 

sheff1

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I can think of parts of the UK that could do with that to fill gaps - not the half-hearted RailLinks stuff, a proper railway bus fully within the railway ticketing system with railway levels of comfort.

Based on service coaches I have been on in some European countries recently, providing railway levels of comfort would be a downgrade.
 

dutchflyer

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DB ICbus does run to London-the DUs-Eindhoven-Antwerpen_LON route, only around weekends. There are scores of cheaper coaches/buses too.
It is intended to merge DB ICbus with the long time existing Berlinlinienbus (a subsidiary of DB dating from DDR-times to serve Berlin).
DB already runs daily and weekendonly overnight ICE trains like Aachen-K"oln to Berlin and Dusseldof-K"oln-to M"unchen which are even better for the old-style dedicated Interrail user, as its all ''free''. Lately CNL would cost a whopping 14/15 eur extra for IR for the reclining seats-many hostels cost less, even in Germany.
 

scarby

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This hacking away at sleeper services is a great shame.

Sleepers offer advantages that other ways of getting from A to B can't match.

For example, suppose one is based in Malmö and attending an all-day expo/conference in Stockholm.

With the sleeper you could have a regular day in Malmö, plus the evening to prepare. Arrive late at Malmö station, overnight train and wake early in Stockholm for the whole day. Have the evening in Stockholm for "networking"/socialising/after expo meal, etc, take the night train back and be in Malmö fresh the following morning.

Without the sleeper, the alternatives are either an extremely exhausting day trip, probably by plane, with a very early start and late homecoming with no evening time at the destination. Or to travel up the day before, staying two nights in a hotel, and returning the following morning, which eats into the days on either side.
 

Bletchleyite

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Notably, the only viable way for someone living or working in London on regular office hours to have a weekend in the Highlands is the Sleeper. Flying would leave you with two half days due to the long transfers needed, while going by car would be rather unsafe.
 

RT4038

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Notably, the only viable way for someone living or working in London on regular office hours to have a weekend in the Highlands is the Sleeper. Flying would leave you with two half days due to the long transfers needed, while going by car would be rather unsafe.

You may well be right, but the problem is few people are actually making use of the sleeper services, for whatever reason!
 

Ianigsy

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It's a great shame but I suspect that a lot of sleeper traffic is seasonal (in 2012 I saw the Copenhagen-Amsterdam/Zurich/Prague CNL setting off on the first leg of its journey and it seemed well loaded in all sections) and a private operator may be able to be more demand responsive, particularly with good quality stock available. There's also the political side- I suspect it's not politically acceptable for the German federal government to pay out for new high speed lines and ICEs to run on them and still subsidise sleepers, many of which are used by people making longer cross-European journeys which don't benefit Germany directly.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I was at Jenbach station last week and I think I saw a train from Amsterdam going through to Innsbruck? could that be correct.

There seemed to be a Russian Sleeper train too at Kurfstein? on the German/Austrian border.

I also saw at Koln Hbf a few months ago about 2130 ish a sleeper train going to Berlin and Prague.
 

30907

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The Amsterdam Munich goes through on Fridays returning Saturdays in season.

The Russian one would be the weekly Moscow Nice

And the Prague workings are part of the CNL network though CD supply the sleepers (and the Warsaw cars are Polish).
 
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