Claim for missing train through wrong announcement.

[AM9]

I have today travelled from Chester to St Albans Abbey including a change at Milton Keynes Central. Although it was a tight (but scheduled) connection at MKC, a series of misleading CIS messages and a wrong PA announcement caused me to miss the connection and consequentially to arrive an hour late at my destination.
None of the trains in the itinerary were late (in strict railway terms) but the wrong information caused my missing the connection, so in truth, the 'railway' failed to deliver and the effect was the same as a dely.
If anybody here can advise:

1) if the situation did not meet the 'delay repay' criteria, what other mechanism should I use to make a complaint/claim
2) to whom should I adress any communications: e.g.

Virgin Trains from whom I purchased the tickets and received an itinerary,
West Midlands Trains who manage the station and operate the train that I was unable to board
Any other appropriate agency​

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[pemma]

If the Virgin service was on time to the minute I would direct the complaint at WMT. You made the journey so you aren't entitled to a refund for it from the ticket seller and if Virgin's train wasn't even 1 minute late they aren't even partly responsible for the missed connection. As WMT directed passengers to the wrong platform and didn't hold the train to allow for passengers getting to get to the correct platform they would have to provide any compensation but what you'll get is unclear.

 

[Gareth Marston]

We're there any other "misinformed passengers" who shared this experience?

 

[AM9]

We're there any other "misinformed passengers" who shared this experience?

Yes there was another person who had traveled from Bangor on the same VT train and was going to St Albans Abbey. I collected two (WMT) Delay Repay forms from the gateline and gave one to her. I don't know whether she will take any action as she said that the time was not so critical to her. Other passengers were just grumbling at the confusion but I think that the impact on their journeys was confined to being on a later up WMT.

 

[gray1404]

What exactly happened in terms of the information that was incorrect on the screens and public address system?

 

[AM9]

What exactly happened in terms of the information that was incorrect on the screens and public address system?

The VT published itinerary was as follows:
10:35 Chester to 12:02 Milton Keynes Central (MKC) on VT Holyhead to Euston service 1A25
12:07 Milton Keynes Central to 12:30 Watford Junction (WFJ) on West Midlands Trains* Birmingham New St to Euston service 1W10
12:46 Watford Junction to 13:02 St Albans Abbey on West Midlands Trains* service 2F21

Aware of the limited time at MKC to change from the 1A25 arrival platform 5 to the 1W10 expected to depart from platform 1 the VT train manager suggested avoiding the use of the lift, which I did despite carrying luggage.
1A25 arrived on time so platform 1 was reached in time only to find that CIS was displaying the first train as the 12:22 to Euston. The all arrivals screens (only visible on the platform) there were showing the 12:07 as arriving at platform 3 so I crossed back via the footbridge to that platform. Just as I descended the stairs there was an announcement that the 12:07 would depart at 12:08 from platform 1. Accordingly I returned to platform 1 to see that the CIS was showing it as 12:07 for a few seconds, then it changed to 12:08 and a few seconds after, back to the 12:22. With no staff on the platform, I used the passenger help point to find out what to do. Whilst waiting for an answer, I noticed that a train across the station was preparing to depart. The person on the other end of the help point advised me that it was the 12:07 departing at 12:08. It would not have been possible to get to that train as it started moving a few seconds later.
I had no choice but to take the next train (12:22) to WFJ, thereby missing my connection onto the St Albans Abbey train. Consequently I was 1 hour late completing my journey.

Had the wrong announcement not been made, (which temporarily tallied with the three times changing CIS on P1) I would have stayed on P3 and not missed the correct train.

 

[island]

I don’t think anything is due under the DelayRepay scheme which is intended to compensate for trains running late. However, a well-worded email to Virgin might elicit an ex gratia payment or RTV.

 

[AM9]

I don’t think anything is due under the DelayRepay scheme which is intended to compensate for trains running late. However, a well-worded email to Virgin might elicit an ex gratia payment or RTV.

As far as I can see, VT's conduct was not in question. If MKC station is managed by WMT, doesn't that TOC have some responsibility for announcements that it makes about it's own trains?

 

[island]

It does, but again, it’s not something that, in my view, would be captured under the DelayRepay scheme. It would instead come under general contract law, such as the implied term that a service will be performed with reasonable care and skill (S49 Consumer Rights Act 2015). As you correctly mention, this was not a fault of Virgin Trains, so your claim should be addressed to London Northwestern Railway who manage Milton Keynes Central station and operate the train you missed. Claims under contract law would need to be for an actual loss or damage rather than the fixed percentage of your ticket proposed by DelayRepay (and the NRCoT). Whether that applies to your circumstances I do not know.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of people may be interested to hear how you may get on with such a claim, as Finsbury Park users are often having issues with late platform changes and a state of confusion that can lead to trains being missed.

It has probably got worse now most trains self dispatch as platform staff cannot hold a train to let people change platforms.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It does, but again, it’s not something that, in my view, would be captured under the DelayRepay scheme. It would instead come under general contract law, such as the implied term that a service will be performed with reasonable care and skill (S49 Consumer Rights Act 2015). As you correctly mention, this was not a fault of Virgin Trains, so your claim should be addressed to London Northwestern Railway who manage Milton Keynes Central station and operate the train you missed. Claims under contract law would need to be for an actual loss or damage rather than the fixed percentage of your ticket proposed by DelayRepay (and the NRCoT). Whether that applies to your circumstances I do not know.

Section 49(2) of the CRA sets out what the remedy for breach of Section 49(1) is. It links to Section 54. Section 54(3), in turn, sets out that breach of Section 49 would lead to the right either to repeat performance (Section 55) or a price reduction (Section 56).

Clearly, in the case of a poorly performed transport contract, repeat performance is not appropriate, and thus Section 56 price reduction is the appropriate remedy. Section 56 makes clear that the price reduction should be by an "appropriate amount", which may mean receiving a refund if payment has already been made (as here).

I would suggest that conduct which represents a lack of reasonable care and skill, such as the poor platform announcements in this case, would lead to the same remedy as the train companies contractually offer for delays caused if services are themselves delayed or cancelled. I don't see that there can be any meaningful suggestion of another basis for calculating the refund due. (Note, yes, it is a refund and not compensation if it arises from a claim under Section 56)

To the OP, I would write to West Midlands Trains, explaining the above (which is, in any case, backed up by the NRCoT), asking for the same amount which they would have received had it been the direct delay/cancellation of a train that had led to the 1 hour delay.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Section 49(2) of the CRA sets out what the remedy for breach of Section 49(1) is. It links to Section 54. Section 54(3), in turn, sets out that breach of Section 49 would lead to the right either to repeat performance (Section 55) or a price reduction (Section 56).

Clearly, in the case of a poorly performed transport contract, repeat performance is not appropriate, and thus Section 56 price reduction is the appropriate remedy. Section 56 makes clear that the price reduction should be by an "appropriate amount", which may mean receiving a refund if payment has already been made (as here).

I would suggest that conduct which represents a lack of reasonable care and skill, such as the poor platform announcements in this case, would lead to the same remedy as the train companies contractually offer for delays caused if services are themselves delayed or cancelled. I don't see that there can be any meaningful suggestion of another basis for calculating the refund due. (Note, yes, it is a refund and not compensation if it arises from a claim under Section 56)

To the OP, I would write to West Midlands Trains, explaining the above (which is, in any case, backed up by the NRCoT), asking for the same amount which they would have received had it been the direct delay/cancellation of a train that had led to the 1 hour delay.

So how come all the other passengers apparently managed to catch the train? See post #4. The OP states that it was only him and an other passenger off the VT service from Chester that missed it.

It's fairly inconceivable that there weren't quite a few other passengers for 1A25 yet they all seem to have caught it..........surely if people were being misdirected to the wrong platform there would be quite a few others in the same situation as the OP?

I see the odd stray passenger turn up at Newtown who have managed to board the wrong train at Shrewsbury most are fairly embarrassed and are looking for assistance as to how to get back to their correct destination. On acouple of occasions we've had people come in kicking off and heaping the blame on the railway. However there are never any groups of people with the same story and all the other passengers getting off the train have all caught the right service to the right destination despite the alleged misdirection.

People miss hear and misread things all the time. If a dozen folk turned up with the same story it's a different scenario.

 

[AM9]

So how come all the other passengers apparently managed to catch the train? See post #4. The OP states that it was only him and an other passenger off the VT service from Chester that missed it.

It's fairly inconceivable that there weren't quite a few other passengers for 1A25 yet they all seem to have caught it..........surely if people were being misdirected to the wrong platform there would be quite a few others in the same situation as the OP? ...

There may have been others. The fact is that I (and my wife) were changing back to platform 3 having just seen the expected platform on the 'all departures' screen on platform 1. As we were actually descending the stairs to P3, the announcement about the 12:07 departing from P1 was made on the PA. Given that time was short and we were both carrying luggage, we turned on the stairs and went back to P1. Then there was the two changes to the information displayed on the P1 CIS; firstly showing the 12:07 from P1 as per the announcement over the PA, followed by a quick change to a 12:08 (delayed) departure followed a few seconds later by it returning to the 12:22 as before. At that point, a person in WMT/LNW uniform passed us and we asked him what was going on. He explained that he was a driver there to pick up a train and couldn't help us. Given the fast approaching departure time of a train that I couldn't locate, I used the adjacent help point on P1. That person advised me that the 12:07 was just leaving MKC, I looked across to P3 and could see the roof of a class350 just beginning to move. There was a Southern Electrostar obstructing the rest of it waiting at P2. After expressing some frustration at the misinformation having missed my train (politely) he suggested that I speak to the local staff about the matter whereupon I went to the gateline.
My wife has confirmed that there were some others who had also switched on hearing the announcement, but I personally only recall the lady from Bangor because she travelled in the same coach of 1A25 as us and mentioned that she was going to St Albans via the Abbey station. Like us, she was also carrying luggage. I might add that 1A25 was very lightly loaded so it is possible that there weren't many changing for the fast WFJ train as those wanting any other station would either catch a slower WMT service or stay on 1A25.
So there you have it. I am not an inexperienced traveller, nor a complete stranger to MKC, but when platforms are changed I have no alternative but to read CIS displays and listen to PA announcements. This time on a fairly tight but official connection, we and others were let down by a failure to give out correct information.

 

[yorkie]

S....The OP states that it was only him and an other passenger off the VT service from Chester that missed it.....

No, he did not say that. He stated he was aware of one other person. I do not know how anyone could possibly establish an exact number of passengers who were affected.

I do not see how your Newtown experiences have any relevance to @AM9's experience whatsover; it appears you are attempting to shift blame onto the customer, which I find extremely disappointing, particularly for an independent third party retailer.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No, he did not say that. He stated he was aware of one other person. I do not know how anyone could possibly establish an exact number of passengers who were affected.

The OP has come back and stated that his wife saw others as well. I'm satisfied that the OP has not just mis heard an announcement as the balance of probabilities that several people independent of each other have "go it wrong" is low. The OP needs to make clear when he writes to LNWR Customer Services that there were others as this will add credibility to his complaint.

 

[johntea]

Yes, you should be able to receive some form of goodwill gesture once you get someone to own up to things!

A few years ago I had a similar issue at Manchester Piccadilly, a TPE train was advertised as Platform 6 but then ended up going from Platform 13, by the time that was announced there was no chance of getting from one to the other!

Initially complained to TPE who passed it on to Northern who were apparently responsible for the issue, can't remember what they paid me but it was definitely something!

 

[AM9]

For those that are interested, here is the result from my correspondence with LNR Customer Relations:
I have received a reply which apologises for the disrupted journey. The reply goes on to say that their Delay Repay scheme provides compensation, commonly when there is some disruption to the train services, however there are other circumstances in which such a claim should be made, and this is one such example.* They have confirmed that compensation will be paid in accordance with their Passenger's Charter.

Firstly, I would like to say that the TOC has dealt with this in a satisfactory manner which will not leave an unpleasant taste in the mouth when I next look to travel with them. With a lack of hard evidence of the errors at MKC, I am pleased that what happened was only apparent to those there at the time, and presumably the internal investigations were rewarded with honest responses to questions. The way that repeats of event like this can be reduced or even prevented in the future is if non passenger-facing staff are allowed to be honest about their errors without being unreasonably penalised. Judging by some of the posts of other RUK members who seem to be having tussels with TOCs who refuse to accept their responsibilities, my experience here may not be the norm. If there are any employees in the LNR customer realtions organisation on this forum this post is to thank them.
I understand from a phone conversation that a communication was sent to the MKC offices about ensuring clarity of information for passengers in the future. I don't know where the PIS and PA is operated from, - the ROC maybe? in which case it might be a NR issue, but some 'all departure' indicators on the footbridge would seem to be essential for passengers making changes which weren't same or cross-platform.

* The online Delay Repay form does not seem to address journey delays resulting from other than late or cancelled trains so if it is intended that other curcumstances are dealt with using the form, it needs to be made clearer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good to hear they have used their discretion, however the actual issue (a southbound train being shown as platform 3) is incredibly unlikely. I don't know if it is bidirectionally signalled, but platform 3 is only ever used for northbound trains via Northampton, or VTs northbound when there is two-track working. Southbound LNRs go from 1 (through) or 2 (bay), Southerns from 2 only. 5 could be used but is unlikely for a train from Northampton, particularly as there is a 1203 VT from 5.

The PIS I believe is mostly automatic, though I don't know who manually overrides it. The PA "manual override" I'm pretty sure is local (so in a room behind the ticket office), when it's ATOS Annie it is just fed off the PIS.

There is at least one "all departures" screen on the footbridge, it's about half way along on the non-stairs side, I tend to find I mostly use that one to find out if VTs will be 5 or 6. There's also a set of arrival/departure screens on the "railside" side of the gateline (by platform 1) and there are now near enough always staff there to assist.

I think this just tells me something I've long believed - 5 minute connections are too short for most people unless they are guaranteed to be cross-platform (it can take you that long to get off the platform at busy times at MKC), and really 10 minutes is a more sensible minimum at the vast majority of stations with only a few very specific exceptions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having had a bit of a Google it looks like platform 3 is bi-directional but the down slow itself is not. So maybe there was at one point a decision to terminate the train short due to a lack of guard and send it back to Northampton ECS to get it out of the way? Or maybe there was an emergency need to switch it slow to fast line but a points failure at Hanslope Jn which would have put it into 4/5 to do that, in which case that move looks to be possible, but I have never seen it.

Mind you odd things do sometimes happen - I have boarded a 12-car 350 at Bletchley platform 6, which I suspect has also only ever happened once.

So this seems, assuming it did indeed happen as you stated, to have been confusion (including of staff) caused by an exceptional operating condition that has probably never happened ever before or since.

Still good customer service to pay out, though.

 

[js1000]

Wrong announcements happen sadly. The TOC would be prudent to listen to your claim and come to an agreement.

However they may dismiss it (i.e. "we have no proof of what announcements were made so we can't pay out under Delay Repay etc). You'd potentially struggle if they do that.

I reckon Passenger Focus or the Railway Ombudsman would be of assistance in this matter as it doesn't come under Delay Repay but a sui genris matter as a result of an error made by a member of railway staff. Not to mention those two bodies have to ensure such mistakes don't happen so other passengers aren't inconvenienced in the future.

Definitely find any other passengers who missed their train. It will help greatly to corroborate your claim.

 

[najaB]

Wrong announcements happen sadly. The TOC would be prudent to listen to your claim and come to an agreement.

Uhm... Did you read the thread? Especially post #17?