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Class 142s 3s and 4s opinions

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IamTrainsYT

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World war 3 seems to have broken out in the pacer withdrawals thread so here is a thread for opinions.
 
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bramling

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World war 3 seems to have broken out in the pacer withdrawals thread so here is a thread for opinions.

They’re a means of getting from A to B, and from a user’s perspective I’d prefer a 4-car Pacer over a 2-car something else. The Northern Spirit and original interior versions at any rate.
 

Darandio

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Scrapped 20 years too late. It's all well and good suggesting that they could still be offering capacity today and shouldn't be scrapped until sufficient capacity is out there and working, but the truth is that we should never have been in this situation in the first place.

As it's been mentioned in that other thread and will no doubt be mentioned here as well, it's also far too simplistic to suggest that Pacers were responsible for saving lines from closure. Suggesting that they were the sole reason is nothing more than rose tintedness.
 

IamTrainsYT

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Pacers definitely preferred to a 150 for me!
Same here, I love bouncing along the hope valley knowing my train isn’t going to slip and will arrive at its destination on time and not leaving me and other people stranded in the cold waiting for a late 150
 

curly42

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I loved driving the 143s - pure simple machines.

They may have been awful for the passengers,but great to drive.I had several thousand miles on all of them (except 143605,but that's another story),and I'd be happy to be back on them.
 

Chris217

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Same here, I love bouncing along the hope valley knowing my train isn’t going to slip and will arrive at its destination on time and not leaving me and other people stranded in the cold waiting for a late 150

Pacers will be popular on heritage lines.

As I have only been a fan since 1989 and
I have always been fond of them for their character.....and the fact they are different to everything else.
I have been lucky enough to clear all the 142s for haulage and down to 1 143 and 2 144s to clear the lot.

I remember travelling on a pair of 143s from Cardiff to Bristol TM many years ago.
Great when they can stretch their legs on faster journeys.
People forget it's the track that makes them bouncy but with improved long welded rails nowadays,these run the same as anything else really.
But the haters wont see ANYTHING positive in a train they hate whether they are reliable or not.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Here's my opinion on the Pacer class of units.

Without these Pacer's, many rural branchlines would have closed.

The Penistone Line would have been one line that would have been lost had it not been for the Pacer, other lines include the Calder Valley which more than likely would have been singled apart from at select railway stations (e.g. Todmorden, Hebden Bridge and Sowerby Bridge), at Halifax the station would be unstaffed and only one platform would be in use. The line beyond Halifax would have closed and Beacon Hill Tunnel would have been backfilled, the line betwen Milner Royd Junction and Heaton Lodge Junction would also have been singled however Brighouse would still have no station so services would have passed through without stopping. The Five Towns area of Wakefield would look very different as only the line between Wakefield Westgate and Goole would have suvived as a goods only route albeit singled. The only suviving railway stations would have been Pontefract Baghill, Moorthorpe and South Elmsall. The former two would only exist as the line was and still is a well used goods route.

Greater Manchester would look profoundly different had Pacer's not been introduced, many would have been lost and only the main lines would have suvived.

Meanwhile in the South West the Severn Beach Line wouldn't exisit, the line to Westbury would almost have been singled as far as Salisbury. Melksham would have closed. Devon and Cornwall, none of the branchlines would suvive and both Devon and Cornwall would look similar to West Yorkshire, a barren landscape of lost lines and railway stations where the only option is bus or walk - still is in regards with Cleckheaton, Liversedge, Heckmondwike, Holmfirth, Wetherby, Otley, Ossett, Queensbury and a pile of other places such as Wimbourne, Wells, Shepton Mallet and Radstock.

Many thanks to the Pacer class, many of these lines are still here today maybe not seeing Pacers running the services but mostly class 150 or class 153 Sprinters but before them it was the Pacer and without them the railways of Britain would be a very different animal it is today.
 

lyndhurst25

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Given that there were both prototypes (LEV and Class 140) and a pre-production fleet (Class 141), it's surprising that the Class 142/143/144s turned out to be so rubbish in the end. Didn't they all end up needing replacement engines, gearboxes and braking systems after only a few years in service? Maybe BR didn't do enough testing and evaluation before placing big orders. Surely passenger and staff feedback must have been terrible. Or maybe they were so short of cash that they just didn't care!
 

ed1971

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Given that there were both prototypes (LEV and Class 140) and a pre-production fleet (Class 141), it's surprising that the Class 142/143/144s turned out to be so rubbish in the end. Didn't they all end up needing replacement engines, gearboxes and braking systems after only a few years in service? Maybe BR didn't do enough testing and evaluation before placing big orders. Surely passenger and staff feedback must have been terrible. Or maybe they were so short of cash that they just didn't care!

The original Leyland TL11 engines in Pacers and the SCG R500 gearboxes were basically updated versions of that fitted to first generation DMUs. However, the transmission had the forward/reversing gear on the input side of the gearbox which was a big flaw as the components in the gearbox rotated both ways causing brake bands to fail. All Class 142s, 143s and 144s had received Voith gearboxes by late March 1991.

The turbocharged TL11 engine worked okay in buses and coaches, but didn't like long periods ticking over. This led to carbon build up and melted pistons. BR found that it was more economical to fit new Cummins LT10R engines to Pacers rather than overhaul the Leyland units. The fitting took place on overhaul at BRML Doncaster between March 1993 and April 1996. Class 142s received the new doors around the same time.

I remember the first generation DMUs all too well. They rode worse than Pacers with severe bogie hunting and jerky gear changes. I hated the Class 104s most, with dingy tungsten lighting, filthy dark wooden stained interiors and diesel fumes coming inside. This is a video of Manchester Victoria in 1989 showing class 104s at 6:01 and 9:48:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=72W-IZIdNr0
When introduced, the nice clean Pacer was welcomed with open arms.
I expect that the drivers would have found the Pacers with auto transmission child's' play to drive, compared with the old DMUs with challenging gear changes.
The Class 101s and Class 108s were better examples as they had been refurbished. I recall that in 1993/4 I used to catch a 7:45am service on Saturdays to Manchester Victoria. It was invariably a 101 and could not keep to Pacer/Sprinter timings. They subsequently changed the rolling stock on this service.

Other European countries use railbuses. This Czech one is older than our Pacers and is still giving good service.

Some have even been rebodied.


Here is a picture of a 142 Corsican style, although it has bogies: https://www.flickr.com/photos/allanscotson/24301348758
 
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Paul_10

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Loved the pacers(apart from the merseyrail ones to an extent) personally, they are not that noisy in terms of the engine sound compared to the 150s and 156s but of course they made up quite a bit of noise when going round bends!

Before I took much of an interest in mainline trains around 2012/13 I travelled on a 142 with the northern spirit seating and then one with the bus seats and back then I thought the bus seats were not acceptable to be sitting on whilst travelling on the train(and actually thought at the time northern was going to eventually replace them with the proper seating) and no doubt that view is shared by the non enthusiasts. If all pacers were refurbished to northern spirit standards then I think some people will tolerate them more, its no accident people don't tend to moan about the 143s and 144s as much. As it happens now I do think some of the bus seat pacers has decent interiors especially those that were in Devon and received the bright pink poles, some did look quite spacious and airy but others looked quite shabby and basic.

Taking the enthusiast side out of things out of it, now is the time for them to go. They served their purpose well and I actually think considering their basic design, they were quite reliable but northern passengers deserve better rolling stock and the 195s and 331s will be a significant upgrade. Okay the 195s may have some issues such as rattles but passengers won't have to endure getting soaked on inside, have a smoother ride and won't have rainwater coming through the windows.
 

Llama

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Okay the 195s may have some issues such as rattles but passengers won't have to endure getting soaked on inside, have a smoother ride and won't have rainwater coming through the windows.
Don't talk too soon, there are plenty of 195s and 331s that have been leaking.
 

Peter Bonner

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I’d take a Pacer over some variants of 150, simply because they offer a better view out of the window. 150s are poor in that respect.
A key point that you make regarding Windows. Pacers give a far better view than not just the 150s but 156s and 158s, especially if you get a seat towards the middle of the train.It depends I guess on what you want if you travel but for me looking out and taking in the scenery, rural or industrial is what counts on a journey.
 

Bevan Price

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Well - we are all entitled to our own opinion, but I always thought that the Pacers were a mistake. Just as mainland Europe (the non-Communist areas) was getting rid of 4 wheel passenger stock, BR rediscovered that concept. They were never likely to run as smoothly as bogie stock, and they were too small for many of the routes on which they were inflicted.

And to suggest that they "saved" lots of lines is a common myth. Lines around big cities, especially those with PTE/PTAs were never in danger of closure in the 1980s. Only a handful of very rural lines might have been under threat.

The mechanical (engine) parts were largely based on bus designs, and the typical service life of a bus is about 15 years --- so Pacers have considerably exceeded their expected lifetimes, and should have moved into history about 15 - 20 years ago
 

Chris217

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Yeh,but life expectancy of a bus is half of the train.
If that wernt the case we'd have 15 yr old trains going for scrap...or better still
30 yr old buses still on the road.
I was always a big fan of Bristol VR's,Leyland Atlanteans and Nationals lol.

As most trains nowadays have a 40 year expectancy,so Pacers wernt far off anyway.
At least they are going with dignity...to the very end alas!
 

ohgoditsjames

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Should have gone years ago, they were meant to be a temporary stop gap but yet here we are 35 years later.

They should have been replaced by 158’s which are superior in every way and thus far more 158’s should have been ordered which in turn should be replaced within the next 5-10 years or so.
 

hooverboy

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Should have gone years ago, they were meant to be a temporary stop gap but yet here we are 35 years later.

They should have been replaced by 158’s which are superior in every way and thus far more 158’s should have been ordered which in turn should be replaced within the next 5-10 years or so.
It wouldn't have happened though.

The pacers were designed in an era when BR just didn't have the money. It was suffering chronic underinvesment and the passenger numbers were dire.
The original idea was to have a blanket fleet of sprinters, but halfway through the project BR realised they were spending way too much money,and footfall on the rural routes was such that sprinters would have cost a lot to run, so a cut-price,cut cost solution had to be found.

Northern spirit is quite right-the pacers enabled a service to run on lines that could potentially have otherwise closed.
So my opinion- yes they are basic.They were designed to do a job and did it pretty well.
They were never meant to be luxury,they were pure function over form.Get from A to B and that's it.

These days we are in a position where customer numbers have basically doubled- although some rural lines STILL have a low footfall(not as low as it was)
The need for function over flashiness still persists on these lines,as does the need to keep those running costs down.
In my opinion the pacer/sprinter replacements is a golden opportunity to look at these new,green,fuel reducing technologies.

It should also be an opportunity to try and streamline/automate the production process where possible.
Other things like "modular" parts would also help speed up things like repairs and servicing.

The fleet in general still has a job to do,so we can't get carried away with too many bells and whistles, but improvements to reliability and comfort should be looked at as well as those to efficiency.
However we shouldn't get overly obsessed with aesthetics.The costs needs to be monitored.
 

Failed Unit

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Not sure on the timings the pacers were all ordered and under construction before the sprinters. I thought the sprinters were ordered because West Midlands PTE didn’t think the pacers were good enough.

cost wise I would be interesting to know if overall they were cheaper. They have had a lot of money spent on them and still can’t match a 15x MTIN.

Settle - Carlisle was a line BR proposed to close. The pacers didn’t save it. Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Via Brigg) was still effectively closed despite the pacers. Be interesting to know what lines were rescued because of the pacer, when the closure order was issued / removed.

in Lincolnshire most of the expense in running a train service is network rail related. Spalding - Sleaford is only open for 8 hours because of the cost of opening the signal boxes. (Along with no-one can be bothered to re-write the timetable now this is resolved)

But I would love to see the economics of Middlesbrough- Whitby. I suspect the cost of maintaining the infrastructure far outweighs the cost difference between a 156 and a 142.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Strangely, since only my second trip on a Pacer, which was the 16:22 from Manchester Piccadilly to Bolton on March 21st 2018, I've begun to have a soft spot. The 16:22 was a 142 coupled to a the front 2-car 150. The 142 had a fresh-smelling interior. Packed of course.

Since then I've been on 4 Class 143's - 1 GWR one from Exeter St. David's to Dawlish (10:22 service) on the June 16th 2018, and 3 TfW ones - 2 from Penarth to Cardiff Central (23/01/18 and 14/08/19 plus from Caerphilly back into Cardiff Central also on the 14/08/19).

If I'm honest, the interiors of 142's aren't quite as good as the 143's - except for the TfW 142's which I understand have a more high-quality interior.

From where I live, it's roughly a 35-40 bus ride to Didcot Parkway station then around a 75-minute train ride to Cardiff Central - the nearest station for plenty of Pacer's and Class 150's to ride on when you have the right ticket.

For those that may have concerns about the TfW Pacer interiors, they were refurbished in roughly 2016-2017. The interior of the 143 I caught from Penarth on the 14/08/19 smelt like a clean classroom when I boarded before the odd smell of exhaust fumes came in - the tunnel in roughly the Lisvane & Thornhill area on the Rhymney line isn't somewhere you want to be on a Pacer!

Also I think TfW and their maintenance team do a fantastic job with the Pacers and 150's.

I remember being told by a member of TfW staff that drivers prefer Pacers than 150's and that if something goes wrong with a Pacer, you can basically give it a nudge to the next station - in other words, if it breaks down between stations then you can find a way to limp to the next available station.
 

matacaster

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Should have gone years ago, they were meant to be a temporary stop gap but yet here we are 35 years later.

They should have been replaced by 158’s which are superior in every way and thus far more 158’s should have been ordered which in turn should be replaced within the next 5-10 years or so.

1. The 158's were a tad more expensive than the pacers.
2. I'm not sure the aircon on 158's (which appeared to only work in winter and had only 2 emergency openers during summer) was necessarily better than pacers with windows open.
 

Llama

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I remember being told by a member of TfW staff that drivers prefer Pacers than 150's and that if something goes wrong with a Pacer, you can basically give it a nudge to the next station - in other words, if it breaks down between stations then you can find a way to limp to the next available station.
You could do the same with a 150, the only issue you might have with a Sprinter that you wouldn't have with a Pacer would be to do with the air suspension which can be sorted pretty easily by isolating the air feed to it and draining the surge tanks. There are certain faults on 14x & 15x units caused by miniature circuit breakers tripping. These MCBs protect control systems, e.g. 'local control' MCB tripping in the leading cab of a 142 is immediately game over (assisting train required) whereas those same faults on some Sprinter units (150/2, 153, 155, 156, 158) wouldn't result in a failure.

Drivers tend to prefer 142s due to the driver's seating position only. The cabs are pretty awful with draughts everywhere, useless heaters for winter and they are like greenhouses in summer. But given a reasonable outside temperature you can get comfortable in the seat.
 

Failed Unit

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1. The 158's were a tad more expensive than the pacers.
2. I'm not sure the aircon on 158's (which appeared to only work in winter and had only 2 emergency openers during summer) was necessarily better than pacers with windows open.

Saying that I have have had many journeys on Lincoln - Sheffield route on a cold, wet and windy winter days. Freezing cold as the doors can't keep the elements out. The heating was on, but you couldn't notice it.

The seats on the Northern Spirit refurbishment made the 142s better, the Richmond seats on the WYPTE ones made them worse. But in the winter they were the worse trains in Lincoln (although that is a hard choice when you compare it to an overcrowded 153)

I won't miss them.
 

XC victim

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Pacers definitely preferred to a 150 for me!

I really couldn’t agree more. I find a 144 is positively luxurious compared to a class 150, but that really says more about the 150 than the pacers.

I will miss the pacers but it is definitely time to move on
 
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