Class 14X or 15X fuel ranges query...

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by 37201xoIM, 30 Aug 2019.

  1. 37201xoIM

    37201xoIM Member

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    I was just wondering: What, in very rough order-of-magnitude terms, is the assumed fuel range of a Pacer or Sprinter unit (obviously appreciating that different duty cycles will make it vary massively!)?

    Am I right in thinking that if a unit is working “full time” it will generally be fuelled every other day, rather than every day?

    Thanks a lot!
     
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  3. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

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    It's a couple of thousand miles from full to empty, although it's unlikely units will be run that close to the limit.

    All things being equal it does seem to be 2-3 days until a unit is needed back.
     
  4. Llama

    Llama Member

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    The official training resources from Northern suggest a range of about 1600 miles for a Sprinter. Maintenance controllers are the best people to ask, they have to juggle units around with 'high fuel hours', among many other considerations, regularly.
     
  5. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    800 for a Pacer and 1200 for a Turbo (at least 16xx)
     
  6. 37201xoIM

    37201xoIM Member

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    That's really helpful, thanks to you all, and is enough info for me for now.

    Much appreciated!
     
  7. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    May be of slightly related interest.
    Amazingly I dont think any dmus have fuel gauges in the cab and many just a dipstick.
    K
     
  8. 37201xoIM

    37201xoIM Member

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    My old Trabant was like that.
     
  9. Llama

    Llama Member

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    They don't even have a dipstick. Some have a sight glass usually quarter inch thick with grime, some (142s, 144s) have a needle gauge which is either flooded with fuel, broken, caked in grime or all three.

    And yes there is no gauge in the cab. 195s though do have fuel and other fluid levels accessible on the TCMS and LEDs outside the unit.
     
  10. ed1971

    ed1971 Member

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    I read somewhere that a Pacer carriage does about 10 MPG, which is more than most modern buses achieve.
     
  11. hooverboy

    hooverboy Member

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    that kind of describes just how behind the times the rail industry really is.

    not a good look at all.

    airlines will meter out and supply how much fuel is required for a flight to cope with the most adverse weather conditions and hold ups in stacks with a bit left over as contingency.
    ie your standard a320/737 will do benidorm and back on a tank(2000nm)....all goes well you still have 1/4 tank left over.
     
  12. gazthomas

    gazthomas Established Member

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    That would make sense given the less friction, despite the extra weight
     
  13. ed1971

    ed1971 Member

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    I would like to know the MPG of Pacers when they had SCG mechanical gearboxes. When introduced, I read that Class 172s with a similar mechanical ZF gearbox gave a 10% saving on fuel when used on services with several stops, compared to Class 170s with the Voith hydraulic system.
     
  14. Llama

    Llama Member

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    I don't think that a comparison with aircraft is quite the right one, there are quite a few reasons why their fuel is calculated the way it is and none of them are comparable with the way trains are fuelled.

    The calculations of when trains need fuel are based on known characteristics of the traction units in question, their fuel capacity, average consumption and their diagram.
     
  15. causton

    causton Established Member

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    For an aeroplane they go so much further, burn so much more fuel and the fact they are flying up in the air means they have to carry as little fuel as possible, as well as other issues.

    On a train it hardly makes a difference whether the tank is full or empty as to the weight of the train, and you don't need to dump fuel to stop a train in a station!
     
  16. AMD

    AMD Member

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    A 15x is allowed a range of 1500 miles before it's considered empty.
    The diagrams for units are written with the range of the planned unit in mind, with fleet control getting involved if a unit is out of diagram so they can issue the instruction to take it out of service - they have visibility of the required info in GENIUS.
     
  17. Geeves

    Geeves Member

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    As you can imagine control do monitor these things quite carefully but it's very easy for a slip of the finger or an incorrect unit entered on the diagram so 150127 turns out to actually be 150217! That's how an entire DMU can become "lost". That's also the reason they can run out mid diagram.

    I remember the fitter at Vic telling me that a 150 is about 3 or 4 mpg. A 158 at full tilt is doing 1.5mpg or less! 142 at 10 sounds possible but I think it's less. 185 0.2mpg on full power.
     
  18. ed1971

    ed1971 Member

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    I have found the link to the original BREL Leyland Class 142 brochure here: https://sites.google.com/site/pacerchaser/pacer-pages/pacer-page-3--history-and-background . It states that service operation of a two carriage railbus in South East Asia returned an average fuel consumption figure of 35.4 litres per 100km. By my reckoning, that is about 7.98MPG.
     
  19. Llama

    Llama Member

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    It wouldn't surprise me if the Pacers were generally quite a bit more frugal than the Sprinters, their current engines (10 litre straight-six turbo diesel Cummins LTA10R, 230hp) are a smaller, slightly more modern (early '80s) design than the 1960s era design of the NT855R5 used in the 150/3/5/6 units (straight six, turbo diesel, 285hp).

    The Sprinters have a bigger compressed air system so the engine-driven compressor probably adds more auxiliary load on the engine, and they also have a master and slave final drive on the #2 (driven) bogie which will add very slightly to mechanical drag/losses under power.

    Pacer vehicles have a single driven axle hence a single final drive. The transmissions on both Sprinters and Pacers are very similar in operation and when coasting there is no noticeable drag. 142s and 144s retain their old twin alternator system whereby a cardan shaft off the free end of the engine drives a splitter gearbox which has a further shaft to each of two alternators on each vehicle, which supply the auxiliary power and charge the start batteries. The start batteries are also used for most safety critical and control circuits on the unit. Class 150/2s had a very similar alternator setup to the Pacers but 150s are being modified with a new 'alternator raft' which has one mechanical input which turns the alternator via a hydrostatic pump, the new alternators having their own oil circuit. All other Sprinters bar the /2s have always had a single alternator. I can't see the older/Pacer alternator setup having a great deal of difference on mechanical drag but it's possibly noticeable.

    Where the fuel consumption tables will be turned though will be at higher running speeds - Pacers, being only about 2/3 the weight of Sprinters and being less powerful, suffer far more from wind resistance at speed and their power drops off markedly above 60mph. This effect is reduced when units are coupled in multiple as the frontal wind resistance is probably virtually nothing for the second unit, although the wind resistance for the rest of the unit (particularly around underfloor equipment, bodyside etc) will remain about the same. When taking a single 142 on a flat, relatively featureless route such as Wigan to Southport and back you can usually tell which way the wind is blowing by the performance (or lack of) one way vs the other.
     
  20. 37201xoIM

    37201xoIM Member

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    Thanks a lot for the interesting and informative posts!
     

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