Class 158 centre cars

[Waldgrun]

I was just browsing the Wikipedia article for BR class 158 units which states "17 units were built as three-car units; eight of these units have since had the centre car removed", if this is correct what happen to these vehicles?
Did they go oversea to Thailand because later in the article there is the following statement, "All units of Class 158 of State Railway of Thailand were refurbished in 2011. The refurbishment involved the repainting of the trains into a new livery and the lengthening of the trains to 4 coaches."
The last statement raise the question if the new vehicles are not the centre coaches, who built and supplied a small batch of 158 compatible vehicles, and could they have provided a quick fix to our rolling stock problems?

 

[swt_passenger]

AFAICR they were all transferred into different units to form three car units from twos. I think all wiki is trying to get across (presumably poorly) is that the centre cars are no longer in the place they started.

Another factor if trying to track down the 3 car units is that SWT's 8 x 3 car 159/1s were renumbered from 158s a few years ago, as were their original 159/0s at delivery.

Someone may know exactly what was done and when (and by whom).

 

[Bletchleyite]

SRT have probably just reformed what they had into 4-car units in the same way some UK TOCs have done with theirs in the past.

 

[bramling]

AFAICR they were all transferred into different units to form three car units from twos. I think all wiki is trying to get across (presumably poorly) is that the centre cars are no longer in the place they started.

Another factor if trying to track down the 3 car units is that SWT's 11 x 3 car 159/1s were renumbered from 158s a few years ago, as were their original 159/0s at delivery.

Someone may know exactly what was done and when (and by whom).

The 3-car units were all originally used on Trans-Pennine services. When replaced by 185s some went to SWT to become the 159/1s whilst most or all of the rest went to Central Trains for a time, they were common on the Liverpool to Norwich route although they also turned up elsewhere for example Skegness (alongside CT's 3-car 170s). If I remember rightly there was then a DFT decision that the centre cars should be allocated to Northern instead, which was an unpopular move as it led to massive overcrowding particularly on Liverpool-Norwich.

The centre cars can now be found on Leeds-based services, mainly the Calder Valley, but also on routes such Settle & Carlisle or York-Blackpool North. I think I remember reading on this forum that one centre car found its way to FGW.

 

[1179_Clee2]

The 3-car units were all originally used on Trans-Pennine services. When replaced by 185s some went to SWT to become the 159/1s whilst most or all of the rest went to Central Trains for a time, they were common on the Liverpool to Norwich route although they also turned up elsewhere for example Skegness (alongside CT's 3-car 170s). If I remember rightly there was then a DFT decision that the centre cars should be allocated to Northern instead, which was an unpopular move as it led to massive overcrowding particularly on Liverpool-Norwich.

The centre cars can now be found on Leeds-based services, mainly the Calder Valley, but also on routes such Settle & Carlisle or York-Blackpool North. I think I remember reading on this forum that one centre car found its way to FGW.

The 17 3 car 158's that were used by trans pennine express

8 trains at SWT now 159 101 to 108
1 train to First Great Western
5 trains at EMT center cars at Northern
3 trains at SWT center cars at Northern

 

[pdeaves]

I think I remember reading on this forum that one centre car found its way to FGW.

Indeed it did. It currently carries a light blue-based 'Springboard' charity promotional livery.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think I have the numbers:

MS car / 2006 / 2017

58715 / 158798 / 158798
58716 / 158799 / 158752
58717 / 158800 / 159101
58701 / 158801 / 159108
58702 / 158802 / 158755
58703 / 158803 / 159102
58704 / 158804 / 159103
58705 / 158805 / 159104
58706 / 158806 / 158757
58707 / 158807 / 159105
58708 / 158808 / 158754
58709 / 158809 / 159106
58710 / 158810 / 158753
58711 / 158811 / 159107
58712 / 158812 / 158756
58713 / 158813 / 158759
58714 / 158814 / 158758

From the 2006 and 2016 P5 books. Corrections welcome.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Were the original 3 car 158s ones built for a specific route?

 

[43096]

Were the original 3 car 158s ones built for a specific route?

Trans-Pennine!

Going back to the original posting, I would say 39 sets were built as 3-car. The 17 talked about above, plus what would have been 158873-894. These were built as 158s, but converted to 159001-022 before entering service.

 

[cjmillsnun]

SRT have probably just reformed what they had into 4-car units in the same way some UK TOCs have done with theirs in the past.

SWT did no such thing. All the 159s were originally 3 car 158s

 

[dosxuk]

SWT did no such thing. All the 159s were originally 3 car 158s

He didn't say SWT, he said SRT.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Why didn't they build them all as 3 car units instead of just the trans-pennine ones being 3 car?

 

[LowLevel]

The 3-car units were all originally used on Trans-Pennine services. When replaced by 185s some went to SWT to become the 159/1s whilst most or all of the rest went to Central Trains for a time, they were common on the Liverpool to Norwich route although they also turned up elsewhere for example Skegness (alongside CT's 3-car 170s). If I remember rightly there was then a DFT decision that the centre cars should be allocated to Northern instead, which was an unpopular move as it led to massive overcrowding particularly on Liverpool-Norwich.

The centre cars can now be found on Leeds-based services, mainly the Calder Valley, but also on routes such Settle & Carlisle or York-Blackpool North. I think I remember reading on this forum that one centre car found its way to FGW.

Central Trains misreported passenger loadings for reasons best known to itself but over which there was lots of speculation.

EMT has been short of stock ever since, helped somewhat by 4 156s arriving from Northern and a couple more 153s but still with the result that short formations and 153s on services where it's known they can't pick up all the passengers let alone avoid standees common.

Breaking up Central Trains caused so many problems so can't ever see how it was considered a good decision.

 

[D365]

Why didn't they build them all as 3 car units instead of just the trans-pennine ones being 3 car?

Same as why not all Class 170s are 3 car units, really...

 

[edwin_m]

Central Trains misreported passenger loadings for reasons best known to itself but over which there was lots of speculation.

EMT has been short of stock ever since, helped somewhat by 4 156s arriving from Northern and a couple more 153s but still with the result that short formations and 153s on services where it's known they can't pick up all the passengers let alone avoid standees common.

Breaking up Central Trains caused so many problems so can't ever see how it was considered a good decision.

Not sure it was the breakup as such that was a bad decision, and certainly the service under EMT today is better than under Central in nearly every way. The bad decision was not to allocate enough stock to EMT, and what it got was everybody else's leftovers and lemons. EMT like Northern was effectively being treated as a zero-growth franchise in the face of all the passenger figures for regional services.

The franchise terms, shortage of existing units and local aspirations meant that what became LM was moreorless obliged to buy new DMUs for the West Midlands. It would have been possible to oblige it to transfer some or all of its 170 fleet to EMT when these arrived, and place a larger order of what turned out to be 172s as replacement. This would have provided a single diesel fleet for the WM suburban routes and allowed EMT to keep 170s on some at least of the Norwich-Liverpools.

 

[TC60054]

I think I have the numbers:

MS car / 2006 / 2017

58715 / 158798 / 158798
58716 / 158799 / 158752
58717 / 158800 / 159101
58701 / 158801 / 159108
58702 / 158802 / 158755
58703 / 158803 / 159102
58704 / 158804 / 159103
58705 / 158805 / 159104
58706 / 158806 / 158757
58707 / 158807 / 159105
58708 / 158808 / 158754
58709 / 158809 / 159106
58710 / 158810 / 158753
58711 / 158811 / 159107
58712 / 158812 / 158756
58713 / 158813 / 158759
58714 / 158814 / 158758

From the 2006 and 2016 P5 books. Corrections welcome.

Spot on according to my records.

 

[sprinterguy]

Were the original 3 car 158s ones built for a specific route?

Newcastle to Liverpool primarily, although that didn't exclude them from turning up on other North Transpennine routes frequently.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Breaking up Central Trains caused so many problems so can't ever see how it was considered a good decision.

I wouldn't say the breakup of Central Trains was the problem, more the way that it was managed in such a cack-handed way by SRA/DfT.

The only area that did well out of it was the West Midlands, with London Midland getting a shedload of the 170s to rattle around on local services to Shrewsbury and Rugeley. Meanwhile Cross Country didn't get enough 170s for their services, and EMT ended up with the lemons that nobody else wanted.

The biggest problem was EMT being given Liverpool-Norwich though, it should have gone to Cross Country or it should have been split in two at Nottingham (and yes, I know there was opposition to it, but tough).

 

[pemma]

The 3-car units were all originally used on Trans-Pennine services. When replaced by 185s some went to SWT to become the 159/1s whilst most or all of the rest went to Central Trains for a time, they were common on the Liverpool to Norwich route although they also turned up elsewhere for example Skegness (alongside CT's 3-car 170s). If I remember rightly there was then a DFT decision that the centre cars should be allocated to Northern instead, which was an unpopular move as it led to massive overcrowding particularly on Liverpool-Norwich.

The centre cars can now be found on Leeds-based services, mainly the Calder Valley, but also on routes such Settle & Carlisle or York-Blackpool North. I think I remember reading on this forum that one centre car found its way to FGW.

The Northern 3 car 158s are all ex-FNW driving cars with ex-TPE centre cars. You could argue the Liverpool and Manchester areas lost out twice - they lost their FNW 158s when Northern moved them to Neville Hill in exchange for the ATN 150s. Then they saw a capacity reduction on another operator's service in the area.

still with the result that short formations and 153s on services where it's known they can't pick up all the passengers let alone avoid standees common.

And there's larger trains with other franchises that leave behind passengers or often have standing passengers even at 'off-peak' times.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Trans-Pennine!

Going back to the original posting, I would say 39 sets were built as 3-car. The 17 talked about above, plus what would have been 158873-894. These were built as 158s, but converted to 159001-022 before entering service.

Were 158873-894 also built for Trans-Pennine, or only the other 17 3-car sets?

 

[MK Tom]

SRT have probably just reformed what they had into 4-car units in the same way some UK TOCs have done with theirs in the past.

Presumably this involved putting two centre trailers in some sets and permanently coupling the remaining 2-car sets? The Thai units don't have corridor connections do they?

 

[swt_passenger]

Were 158873-894 also built for Trans-Pennine, or only the other 17 3-car sets?

The usual tale is just that they were 'over-ordered' by BR's Regional Railways. I've never seen a categoric statement as to where they were intended to have been used.

But they were diverted to NSE during build as we know.

 

[edwin_m]

The usual tale is just that they were 'over-ordered' by BR's Regional Railways. I've never seen a categoric statement as to where they were intended to have been used.

But they were diverted to NSE during build as we know.

Probably a reaction to the economic slowdown in the early nineties reducing passenger numbers compared with projections at the time the 158s were ordered.

However a handful of 101s did stay in service until around 2000 and probably would not have done had Regional Railways had that batch of 158s to pass onto its successors. It might even be that the 175s would never have been ordered.

 

[LowLevel]

The Northern 3 car 158s are all ex-FNW driving cars with ex-TPE centre cars. You could argue the Liverpool and Manchester areas lost out twice - they lost their FNW 158s when Northern moved them to Neville Hill in exchange for the ATN 150s. Then they saw a capacity reduction on another operator's service in the area.



And there's larger trains with other franchises that leave behind passengers or often have standing passengers even at 'off-peak' times.

I would imagine few of them have as poor a frequency as Lincoln to Grimsby for example though where not being able to board at Market Rasen is the norm rather than the exception, or Skegness in the summer where local passengers from places like Heckington with few if any other options for transport can't board for hours on end.

As for splitting up Central it caused a lot of back office issues as well as front line ones. You suddenly end up with stations like Kidsgrove being covered by staff from a very long way away, rostering and admin staff being out of place, the loss of the West Mids suburban fleet to strengthen the holiday trains in the summer and in fact any fleet flexibility at all for XC and EMT. Central was formed as it was by BR for good reason and hatcheting it up cackhandedly was daft at best.

 

[bramling]

I would imagine few of them have as poor a frequency as Lincoln to Grimsby for example though where not being able to board at Market Rasen is the norm rather than the exception, or Skegness in the summer where local passengers from places like Heckington with few if any other options for transport can't board for hours on end.

As for splitting up Central it caused a lot of back office issues as well as front line ones. You suddenly end up with stations like Kidsgrove being covered by staff from a very long way away, rostering and admin staff being out of place, the loss of the West Mids suburban fleet to strengthen the holiday trains in the summer and in fact any fleet flexibility at all for XC and EMT. Central was formed as it was by BR for good reason and hatcheting it up cackhandedly was daft at best.

Agreed entirely.

I never found CT that bad, reality is in CT days one often got a 3-car train on many of the longer distance routes, on many occasions a 158 or 170. Now many routes where you could get a 170 in CT days now have 158s, or in some cases 153s. Personally I'd have preferred a focus on making CT work, rather than breaking it up. As you say, the lack of flexibility in the fleets really shows now.

 

[BestWestern]

Indeed it did. It currently carries a light blue-based 'Springboard' charity promotional livery.

The unit is 798 and all of it was transferred, the centre car is still where it always was! Interestingly, I presume that this is the only remaining 3 car set still in its 'original' form, i.e. not missing the middle car and not renumbered as a 159?

 

[pdeaves]

The unit is 798 and all of it was transferred, the centre car is still where it always was!

Of course. My response was supposed to imply the whole unit but didn't say so! Thanks.

 

[43096]

Probably a reaction to the economic slowdown in the early nineties reducing passenger numbers compared with projections at the time the 158s were ordered.



However a handful of 101s did stay in service until around 2000 and probably would not have done had Regional Railways had that batch of 158s to pass onto its successors. It might even be that the 175s would never have been ordered.

I think that is pretty close to the mark. As I recall it, at least some of the build were intended for North Wales coast work.

 

[CosherB]

Why didn't they build them all as 3 car units instead of just the trans-pennine ones being 3 car?

The same reasons as why there aren't 10 car Voyagers, 3 car 156s, 4 car 175s, 6 car 180s, 5 car 185s, 4 car 195s .......

 

[bunnahabhain]

The usual tale is just that they were 'over-ordered' by BR's Regional Railways. I've never seen a categoric statement as to where they were intended to have been used.

But they were diverted to NSE during build as we know.

General strengthening and cascading, plus a number for Oxford - Bletchley - Bedford - Corby - Peterborough - Cambridge.