Class 170s/185s to Irish Rail?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by F Great Eastern, 28 Dec 2018.

  1. HLE

    HLE Established Member

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    That isn’t what I said though is it?

    It is daft that we are sending newish units to Ireland, when we will still have pacers, dogboxes and other clapped out sprinters still running on the network. EMT are a prime example of this. Replace as much of the 14x and 15x with the 170/185 if possible. We have a shortage of DMU’s in this country yet the ROSCO’s were planning to send a load to Ireland.

    In a very indirect way, passengers and taxpayers have paid for these units....should I have been grateful when I’m sat on an old pacer or dogbox when because of ridiculous franchise bids perfectly serviceable and more comfortable and modern stock has gone off lease and been sent to Ireland?!
     
  2. Non Multi

    Non Multi Member

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    They're leased, when the lease ends the owner can do what they see fit.
     
  3. squizzler

    squizzler Member

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    The problem as already discussed is that the 170 / 185 units are not ideal for stop-start driving with low top speed. Far better to use a Vivarail 230 or a Flex 769 really.

    If you know a regular bicycle user they probably have a second-hand roadster they use to go down the pub rather than their expensive dropped handlebar race bike for the same reason. Less maintenance, easier to hop on and off, and quite adequate for the task at hand. Less likely to be nicked too, although I understand that is less of a concern with trains...
     
  4. BucksBones

    BucksBones Member

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    Sorry, shouldn’t have paraphrased but that’s how it reads to me.

    The ROSCO owns the trains. It can do as it likes with them and Irish Rail is just as legitimate a customer as, say, EMT. If you don’t like the system then fair enough but I am afraid your use of the phrase “send them” with reference to our clapped out old rubbish is belittling and rather insulting.
     
  5. HLE

    HLE Established Member

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    Who does like the system? My reasoning is explained above. Why should we put up with pacers when we’re potentially sending far more modern units abroad? Units that under supposed privatisation we have probably paid for several times over!

    Sorry, but if you find the above posting insulting then well...
     
    Last edited: 2 Feb 2019
  6. HLE

    HLE Established Member

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    First point is fair enough although they would be useful on Liverpool - Norwich runs to allow a cascade of 158’s. Perfect for that route.

    Completely correct in the second point. (I’m an almost daily cyclist along with being an almost daily driver) and prefer the 1990’s tech to my modern racer for the daily commute. Far more reliable and easier to work on, same goes for the car. Trouble is, on the railway a fitter is more likely to want to work on a 170 than a 153.
     
    Last edited: 2 Feb 2019
  7. HLE

    HLE Established Member

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    Correct. It’s in the ROSCO’s interest to maximise the returns on their assets. Exactly why EMT and Northern passengers will continue to enjoy the delights of a 153 when the 170’s are facing a period of being parked up in a siding. Theoretically anyway. The 170’s are better in every way
     
  8. BucksBones

    BucksBones Member

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    @HLE, You’ve missed the point, it was just the wording of your original post. Never mind.

    For what it’s worth I agree that this is one of many recent examples of the leasing system looking rather silly (707s, 350/2s etc).
     
  9. atraindriver

    atraindriver Member

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    Last edited: 22 Jul 2019
  10. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The seats would fit people taller than 4' 6" for a start. 153s should not be used for a benchmark of seat numbers.
     
  11. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    Usful perhaps, but not perfect for Liverpool - Norwich. Currently operated by standard class only 2 x 158s split at Nottingham. 4 carriages at busy times between Liverpool and Sheffield are often not enough at present. 2 x 3 car 170 or 185 would help there and provide first class which the DfT wants.

    However 2 or 3 x 158 are potentally more helpful with capacity as the crowds can more easily be distributed along the train and the refreshment trolley can get through.

    The DfT want 1st class and refreshments. 158 and 185 don't easily allow that in a 4 or 6 coach train. Operators won't want any more costs than they can avoid. Some stations on the route only have 4 car platforms at present. SDO also needs considering as that would currently mean 2 guards as well as 2 careering units if 185 or 170 are used.
     
  12. atraindriver

    atraindriver Member

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    Last edited: 22 Jul 2019
  13. atraindriver

    atraindriver Member

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  14. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I travelled on one yesterday, and there is more legroom on the 158 as the more modern seats have thinner backs. Pitch is of little importance - what counts is base to back distance.
     
  15. atraindriver

    atraindriver Member

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  16. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    Pacers will be gone by the end of the year and probably 153s, although they are more likely to receive a derogation for use with compliant units. If 185s go to Ireland in a year then they should stay longer! I doubt people would be prepared to pay significantly extra to fund the much higher running costs of 185s vs sprinters and any requirements for more than 2 years into the future would be better served by extra 195s. Is IR asking for 20 for February 2020 or will they go in batches? A bit of leeway around PRM deadline would be good.
     
  17. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    Some regulation, apparently from Network Rail, insists on TPE providing two guards on a 6 coach 185 train stopping at 4 car Dore & Totley to operate SDO. When there's no second guard it doesn't stop! Apparently they can both be in one unit, but they have to be present aboard the train. Rules is rules! Asking all passengers for D&T to travel in the front half won't do, especially when many have reservations at the back. If there's no 2nd guard the Manchester commuting train doesn't stop, or sails on to Sheffield on the way back. Fair do's, it hasn't happened lately.

    Difficulty remains when a 2 x 3 car train stops at any short platform unless there's a through connection between the units. Typically the TPE 7.14 arrives almost on time, is allowed a minute, but usually leaves up to 2 minutes late every day Monday-Thursday (work from home Friday is better). Bookings are made throughout the 6 car train. First is available in both halves and reservations could be at the very front, very back or the middle. No advance warning is available to know which and the same goes for standard class. Result - 100 passengers milling up and down the platform before half have worked out they've all got to get into coach 4 and then walk through to 5 and 6. Not quite so bad coming back.

    Now if reservations for D&T travellers were only made in the first 3 coaches it would be a lot easier. Whatever, the first unit is usually much more crowded than the second. The 185 is a nicer train than a 158 in many ways, but there's just not enough space for standard class passengers and their luggage.
     
  18. F Great Eastern

    F Great Eastern Established Member

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    I have been on 158s about 8 times in the last 12 months and I've found the seats excellent with no problems as far as room is concerned and I'm a very tall chap. They are far better than any 153s operated by EMT.
     
  19. atraindriver

    atraindriver Member

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    Last edited: 22 Jul 2019
  20. Elecman

    Elecman Established Member

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    Could the 185s trmiddle cars be removed from some of the redundant off lease trains and be inserted into the remaining units into 4 or 5 car formations ? And could the 2 driving cars then be rejoined as a single 2 car unit?
     
  21. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    As 170s don't currently run on the Hope Valley line I don't know if that is the case. However, they'd still need two catering trolleys.

    This morning's 6.15 TPE from D&T to Manchester Airport had 6 coaches and there were 39 waiting. The back 3 were locked off. Some passengers are reported to have been standing and some sitting on the floor.
     
  22. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    170s don't have to have two guards when running in multi. Central generally used to roster 2 guards or a guard and an assistant ticket examiner when running in multi on Citylink services like Liverpool - Norwich for customer service reasons.

    Cross Country for example don't bother.

    From what I gather talking to TPE crews out and about they certainly attempt the same with the 185s.
     
  23. Killingworth

    Killingworth Established Member

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    I understand it's for safe operation of SDO at short stations.
     
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Do Class 185s use UDS, i.e. you need to use the cab of the unit you are locking out to release? If so I can see the need for the guard to be in the rear unit before the station concerned, but not any need for a second guard.
     
  25. F Great Eastern

    F Great Eastern Established Member

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    An update on this.

    Ireland's National Transport Authority have unveiled a three point plan for new rolling stock

    - Expressions of interest from global train manufacturers for up to 600 electric / battery-electric powered carriages over a 10-year timescale are being sought.
    - Negotiations are underway between Iarnród Éireann and its supplier seeking to agree an order for at least 41 extra Intercity railcar carriages, adding to an existing fleet of 234 vehicles, to enter service from late 202
    - A tender process is underway by the NTA for the possible purchase or lease of pre-owned trains, which also would involve modifications to fleet, particularly as Ireland’s track gauge differs from that of other railways.
     
  26. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I heard they were planning to return to all 3 and 6-cars on the 22000s, with the additional vehicles.
     
  27. Elecman

    Elecman Established Member

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    I thought that NTA have kicked the 185s into the long grass as taking too long to acquire and expensive to modify, plus TPE may not release all the required number of units?
     
  28. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    That's what is says in Modern Railways, including the statement that TPE need to hang on to 8 more than previously planned. I presume someone is pencilling in the rest for the Liverpool-Nottingham.
     
  29. F Great Eastern

    F Great Eastern Established Member

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    The statement about still looking at procuring pre-owned trains was made today by the NTA, so that's right up to the minute.
     
  30. Philip

    Philip Established Member

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    Are 175s an option, since they'll be off lease in a couple of years?
     

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