Class 175’s after TFW

[Kieran1990]

Some people love them, some dislike them and often associated with their unreliable bigger sister the Class 180. But where could the fairly reliable Class 175’s head once they are replaced on the Welsh Regional & Borders services?
* East-West Rail?
* Northern- would they be suited to the North East replacing the Class 156’s and 158’s?
* EMR to run Liverpool- Nottingham

I doubt they would go for scrap 100mph DMU’s circa 20 years old

 

[randyrippley]

Why do the 158s need replacing?
Another solution looking for a problem

 

[Hardcastle]

Some people love them, some dislike them and often associated with their unreliable bigger sister the Class 180. But where could the fairly reliable Class 175’s head once they are replaced on the Welsh Regional & Borders services?
* East-West Rail?
* Northern- would they be suited to the North East replacing the Class 156’s and 158’s?
* EMR to run Liverpool- Nottingham

I doubt they would go for scrap 100mph DMU’s circa 20 years old

I like these units once they are all refurbished they will be better where to transfer them is another matter they need one permanent base so maybe Chester & start to replace the 150s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would expect Northern, with the aim of starting a cascade that allows the scrapping of the relevant number of 150s, 155s and 156s.

3-car sets would also be suitable for EWR (see that thread) though their requirement for ETCS fitment might make the Cambrian 158s, which will also be available, more attractive. (I would expect, as an aside, the non-ETCS Welsh 158s, if there are any, to go to Northern too, for the same purpose).

 

[eddy321]

Could the 175s be lengthened give more 3 car sets using Class 180s from EMR once there replaced by Class 810?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could the 175s be lengthened give more 3 car sets using Class 180s from EMR once there replaced by Class 810?

Surely it'd be easier to use them as they are, possibly as part of the same pool, on services that would require a longer train? Just because they can run at 125mph doesn't mean they have to (see "Castle Class" HSTs).

Both sets of units would work well on Northern's express services, with 195s moved to local services where the acceleration and door layout are of great benefit - for instance by using 195s on the Atherton line and the CLC stoppers you could potentially get considerable timetable improvements. Don't forget that the 175s started life on NorthWest Express routes like Barrow and Windermere, and basically being updated Class 156s are well-suited to that sort of route.

(Northern indeed did use a 180 for a bit, though the route on which they used it, Blackpool-Manchester, is now electrified and run using 6-car EMUs)

 

[Bikeman78]

I would expect Northern, with the aim of starting a cascade that allows the scrapping of the relevant number of 150s, 155s and 156s.

3-car sets would also be suitable for EWR (see that thread) though their requirement for ETCS fitment might make the Cambrian 158s, which will also be available, more attractive. (I would expect, as an aside, the non-ETCS Welsh 158s, if there are any, to go to Northern too, for the same purpose).

All 24 TfW class 158s have ERTMS. No reason why they can't go to another TOC though. If you switch off the ERTMS, they behave like any other 158.

 

[eddy321]

Surely it'd be easier to use them as they are, possibly as part of the same pool, on services that would require a longer train? Just because they can run at 125mph doesn't mean they have to (see "Castle Class" HSTs).

Both sets of units would work well on Northern's express services, with 195s moved to local services where the acceleration and door layout are of great benefit - for instance by using 195s on the Atherton line and the CLC stoppers you could potentially get considerable timetable improvements. Don't forget that the 175s started life on NorthWest Express routes like Barrow and Windermere, and basically being updated Class 156s are well-suited to that sort of route.

(Northern indeed did use a 180 for a bit, though the route on which they used it, Blackpool-Manchester, is now electrified and run using 6-car EMUs)

I meant more using the carriages from the Class 180 and then placing them into the 2 car Class 175s to lengthen them to make a entire 3 car fleet of 175s trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

I meant more using the carriages from the Class 180 and then placing them into the 2 car Class 175s to lengthen them to make a entire 3 car fleet of 175s trains

I know, and I suggested it would be easier just to use them as complete units where a longer train is required. More flexibility of formation length if you have 2s and 3s.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I worked out in an alternate thread that you could make them into 8x4 and 19x2. Add to that the 180s (depending on what GC do, as well as EMR) and surely you have some form of ‘single fleet’. Perfect for Cardiff - Portsmouth, other GW stuff. Releases 165s / 166s, 158s.

 

[Non Multi]

I worked out in an alternate thread that you could make them into 8x4 and 19x2. Add to that the 180s (depending on what GC do, as well as EMR) and surely you have some form of ‘single fleet’. Perfect for Cardiff - Portsmouth, other GW stuff. Releases 165s / 166s, 158s.

I'm sure First Group will really like* this proposal.

*No chance! They were glad to be rid of the troublesome 180s.

 

[Bevan Price]

Whatever happens will primarily be decided by accountants, rather than by logic.......

Agree that a common fleet of 175s & 180s seems sensible, but I think that 5 coach 180s might be too long for a lot of platforms. My suggestion would be to reduce the 180s to 4 coaches (converting 1st class to standard). I would also downrate their engines from 750 hp to the same 450 hp as on the Class 175s.
That would leave 14 spare "intermediate" coaches, of which I would use 11 to increase all the 175/0s to 3 coaches, and the other three spares to convert some 175/1s to 4 coaches.

So, we would have a fleet of 17 x 4 coach trains, plus 24 x 3 coach trains, which I feel would be much more useful than retaining 2 coach formations, which are too small for most routes where 2 coaches are the current norm.

 

[43096]

Whatever happens will primarily be decided by accountants, rather than by logic.......

I thought accountants were driven by numbers (i.e. logic) rather than anything else.

Are there lots of accountants in fleet teams in TOCs deciding on fleet strategy, then? Or, more likely, this is just the usual cliché.

 

[Energy]

I'm sure First Group will really like* this proposal.

*No chance! They were glad to be rid of the troublesome 180s.

They will not. @Clarence Yard has mentioned Angel mentioning the 180s before, every time it has been a no.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe TFW will keep hold of the 175's as they look good after they have had their refurbishments, instead get rid of the 153's then the 158's & lastly the 150's.

The customer experience is superior & a higher top speed all go in the 175's favour, it's just a logistical nightmare for TFW if they are kept at Chester.

Especially as TFW plan to have 50 197's at chester in the future !

Why would they keep them when they’ll have enough CAFs? And the 150/153/158s are going, too!

 

[TheWalrus]

Personally I’d like to see the 175s go to work Cardiff-Portsmouth, releasing the 165/166s for Devon Metro work. Although I think this is unlikely.
They could be used on XC services between Cardiff and Nottingham and Birmingham Stansted but again I think it is unlikely.
I think the most likely outcome would be to go to Northern so they are near to their current home depot of Chester who can potentially continue to maintain them.

 

[37424]

Why do the 158s need replacing?
Another solution looking for a problem

158's are now 30 years old and should start looking at replacements although whether you would want to replace some of them with 175's is a debatable point, best place for both the 175's and 180's is probably the scrap yard.

 

[Philip]

Could Irish Rail be a possibility to replace their old DMU stock and supplement the Hyundai 22s? I ask because IE were looking at 185s a couple of years ago, for the same purpose. I know the wheels and bodies would need to be modified for the different guage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

158's are now 30 years old and should start looking at replacements although whether you would want to replace some of them with 175's is a debatable point, best place for both the 175's and 180's is probably the scrap yard.

158s should ideally be replaced by electrification. Replacing them with 175s (which don't have the same reliability issue as 180s) ekes out another 10 years or so to do that as they are much newer. Though in reality you could do a cascade, with 158s going onto rural stopping routes (the likes of Ormskirk-Preston, and the Bentham Line which sometimes does see them) to allow 150s and 156s which are about 5 years older to be cascaded out. Most of the routes you'd be talking about have low demand so won't have an issue with the door layout.

180s, probably, will see early scrapping.

 

[TheWalrus]

158s should ideally be replaced by electrification. Replacing them with 175s (which don't have the same reliability issue as 180s) ekes out another 10 years or so to do that as they are much newer. Though in reality you could do a cascade, with 158s going onto rural stopping routes (the likes of Ormskirk-Preston, and the Bentham Line which sometimes does see them) to allow 150s and 156s which are about 5 years older to be cascaded out. Most of the routes you'd be talking about have low demand so won't have an issue with the door layout.

180s, probably, will see early scrapping.

If Grand Central don’t take on additional routes or stock then I think this could be the case.

 

[py_megapixel]

Quite frankly, I would leave them on TfW's long distance services to Llandudno, Holyhead and Cardiff - where they belong - and send the appropriate quantity of 197s to Northern instead.

If the 197 order can be amended to make them 195s, so much the better, though it's almost certainly too late for anything like that - so just put in the correct interior layout for Northern and use them to replace the 150s.

It's ridiculous that people are suggesting scrapping the 175s - which a generally well-liked - when there is a sensible cascade that would have the 150s - decades older - scrapped instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think there is any chance of 175s being scrapped. They can easily form the top of a cascade on Northern allowing the scrapping of some 150s, 155s and 156s. They were built for FNW and ran on the NorthWest Express routes (Barrow/Windermere) and could easily run on them again and other long-distance non-electric services.

180s are likely to be scrapped because they are unreliable rubbish. OK, it's the same bodyshell, but the larger engines just don't seem to work reliably within that constraint. You could re-engine them, I suppose, but then you have to design a modern package in an old bodyshell, not something that seems to have gone very well elsewhere.

 

[popeter45]

would Gaugeing allow then on the Far North Line or west Highland line?, if not i could see then on the Chilterns to bolster capacity for the longer distance journeys?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Could Irish Rail be a possibility to replace their old DMU stock and supplement the Hyundai 22s? I ask because IE were looking at 185s a couple of years ago, for the same purpose. I know the wheels and bodies would need to be modified for the different guage.

Only the bogies would need changing, the loading gauge in Ireland is pretty much the same as GB, hence them using mk3s for much of the 1980s and 1990s.

 

[Neptune]

Only the bogies would need changing, the loading gauge in Ireland is pretty much the same as GB, hence them using mk3s for much of the 1980s and 1990s.

The Irish loading gauge is a bit larger than the UK’s.

If you look at the mk3 behind the loco in the Enterprise formation compared to the 201 class loco and De Dietrich stock it’s coupled to it shows the difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Irish loading gauge is a bit larger than the UK’s.

If you look at the mk3 behind the loco in the Enterprise formation compared to the 201 class loco and De Dietrich stock it’s coupled to it shows the difference.

It's not that much different. But even so, because it's a high platform country you can use UK stock in Ireland, as demonstrated by the Mk3s!

The track gauge is of course different, so new bogies needed.

 

[berneyarms]

A need for them in Ireland is now highly unlikely.

41 additional Class 22000 ICR intermediate coaches are to start being delivered next year.

A massive order of new DART rolling stock will cascade the 29000s down from Dublin commuter services.

 

[Surreyman]

I believe the plan is to replace the 175s before 158s and 150s.
Does anyone know what the physical condition of this 20 year old stock is? - I am thinking corrosion as well as interiors.

 

[Caaardiff]

I believe the plan is to replace the 175s before 158s and 150s.
Does anyone know what the physical condition of this 20 year old stock is? - I am thinking corrosion as well as interiors.

Not heard any reports of corrosion but that's not to say on closer inspection that it could be an issue. All the 175 fleet is currently undergoing an internal refresh and exterior repaint into TfW colours, which is probably about half way through the program. All 2 cars have been done.
According to the original TfW Franchise brief the 175's were down to start to leave at the end of this year and all leases ended by May 2022.
Is there any confirmation as to which TOC they will be going to next?
I'm guessing they need to be the first to go to allow Alstom Chester to take on maintenance of the 197's.

 

[anthony263]

Originally I thought they'd go to east-west rail as they were a mixture of 2 and 3 carriage units abd probably cheaper to lease and run than the class 185s.

Now I'm not so sure.