Class 175 to GWR

[Bletchleyite]

I personally think that yes, but it’s not objective of course.

And unless it's very quiet, a 2 car 175 is inferior to a 5 car IET. And you can be sure single units will end up out in service even if they aren't nominally supposed to. Longer formations have the advantage that they can't be short-formed - they either run or they don't.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And unless it's very quiet, a 2 car 175 is inferior to a 5 car IET. And you can be sure single units will end up out in service even if they aren't nominally supposed to. Longer formations have the advantage that they can't be short-formed - they either run or they don't.

The only hope in this set of circumstances, is that while this may cause a 2 car to be floating around Devon and Cornwall at times, it’s far less likely to mean a 5 car in Devon and Cornwall on the London services than currently, which is usually more disastrous.

 

[The exile]

And unless it's very quiet, a 2 car 175 is inferior to a 5 car IET. And you can be sure single units will end up out in service even if they aren't nominally supposed to. Longer formations have the advantage that they can't be short-formed - they either run or they don't.

But 5-car IETs can be replaced by 2-car 158s or even 150s even now!

 

[fgwrich]

And unless it's very quiet, a 2 car 175 is inferior to a 5 car IET. And you can be sure single units will end up out in service even if they aren't nominally supposed to. Longer formations have the advantage that they can't be short-formed - they either run or they don't.

For completeness sake, let’s call them a 3.5 car IET as unless you sell out of First Class (barely used on these local services) then that’s what they really are. And hopefully a 3 car 175 is what will replace the 3.5 car IET.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

For completeness sake, let’s call them a 3.5 car IET as unless you sell out of First Class (barely used on these local services) then that’s what they really are. And hopefully a 3 car 175 is what will replace the 3.5 car IET.

Obviously that is, of course, 3.5 carriages of 26m instead of 3 carriages of 23m though.

 

[jayah]

For completeness sake, let’s call them a 3.5 car IET as unless you sell out of First Class (barely used on these local services) then that’s what they really are. And hopefully a 3 car 175 is what will replace the 3.5 car IET.

In the spirit of calling things what they are:

4 car Voyager = 160 Standard seats.
3 car Class 175 = 190 Standard seats
5 car Voyager = 220 Standard seats
5 car GWR IET = 290 Standard seats

For reference built, the 9 car Class 390 had 296 in Standard, but it has a lot more today.

 

[RPI]

The Cardiff services are pretty quiet west of Exeter anyway.

 

[northernbelle]

Given the large net increase in vehicles represented by the 175s, I'm sure there will be enough to suitably replace IETs. They will operate in up to 5 car formation in their new homes as 2, 3, 4 and 5 cars as necessary.

 

[virgintrain1]

In the spirit of calling things what they are:

4 car Voyager = 160 Standard seats.
3 car Class 175 = 190 Standard seats
5 car Voyager = 220 Standard seats
5 car GWR IET = 290 Standard seats

For reference built, the 9 car Class 390 had 296 in Standard, but it has a lot more today.

Erm
4 car voyager 26F 176s
XC 221 5 car 26F 236s

 

[Caaardiff]

In the spirit of calling things what they are:

4 car Voyager = 160 Standard seats.
3 car Class 175 = 190 Standard seats
5 car Voyager = 220 Standard seats
5 car GWR IET = 290 Standard seats

For reference built, the 9 car Class 390 had 296 in Standard, but it has a lot more today.

A 2 car 175 has 122 seats.

So if in 5 car formation which is the impression I'm getting, there will be more standard seats. 312 vs 290.
But a slight decrease from 326 if First is included.

But it does give the flexibility of running 6 car 175s and moving capacity around

In terms of facilities a 5 car 175 has 5 toilets and IET has 5.
A 5 car 175 and IET both have 4 bike spaces.

 

[The Prisoner]

I’m guessing the 175 knockers haven’t ridden in these units.

Much better than an IET and my personal view from their former territory in Chester is that they are far superior to a 197 both in ride and comfort.

Still can’t believe TfW took them out of service with so long left on their lease (yes I know it was in the rush to hand the Alstom depot in Chester to CAF so they couldn’t maintain them).

Don’t knock them til you have ridden them.

 

[simonmpoulton]

Yep they are fantastic units very comfortable seating and quiet inside with very little noticeable engine noise. Seating is vastly superior to anything fitted to modern stock!

 

[Towers]

In terms of facilities a 5 car 175 has 4 toilets and IET has 3.
A 5 car 175 and IET both have 4 bike spaces.

A 5 car IET has 5 toilets - two accessible, a pair of space savers in one vestibule and a single space saver in another.

Yep they are fantastic units very comfortable seating and quiet inside with very little noticeable engine noise. Seating is vastly superior to anything fitted to modern stock!

Just as with SWR’s equally comfortable DMU fleet, thank heavens the railway has neither the time nor the money to ‘improve’ them with ironing boards!

 

[Caaardiff]

A 5 car IET has 5 toilets - two accessible, a pair of space savers in one vestibule and a single space saver in another

Thank you. Proof you should never always rely on a Google search!

 

[jayah]

Erm
4 car voyager 26F 176s
XC 221 5 car 26F 236s

If it has changed, that maybe after the Shops were removed.

 

[jayah]

A 2 car 175 has 122 seats.

So if in 5 car formation which is the impression I'm getting, there will be more standard seats. 312 vs 290.
But a slight decrease from 326 if First is included.

But it does give the flexibility of running 6 car 175s and moving capacity around

In terms of facilities a 5 car 175 has 5 toilets and IET has 5.
A 5 car 175 and IET both have 4 bike spaces.

The idea of a 5 car 175 formation seems highly speculative at this stage.

It is a matter of fact however, that no operator has ever managed to reliably deliver multiple formations of diesel units and GWR are a good example of what happens when such plans meet reality.

 

[Snow1964]

Given the large net increase in vehicles represented by the 175s, I'm sure there will be enough to suitably replace IETs. They will operate in up to 5 car formation in their new homes as 2, 3, 4 and 5 cars as necessary.

The net increase is relatively small vs whole GWR fleet.

This will be first real change in GWR fleet size for about 6 years (ignoring tiny changes like Greenford battery unit etc)

However have to remember that a number of GWR areas are busier than 6 years ago (pre covid).
Bristol -Weymouth is over 23% higher vs pre covid
Bristol-Gloucester is 13% higher than pre covid
Bristol -South Wales is 12% higher than pre covid
Bristol-Portsmouth is about 2% higher than pre covid

(I noted these down during a recent presentation, there are other lines but I didn't scribble down the figures). I also remember that on a couple of lines passengers were up about 20% in a year, and sure one was over 30% up on previous year (but can't remember which for the increases)

We all know that London commuting has fallen, but if the above figures are typical of the GWR west area (and I don't know if they are) then it is fairly obvious that adding the 175s are barely keeping up capacity, compared to increased usage on the regional (non London) routes in south west.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The idea of a 5 car 175 formation seems highly speculative at this stage.

It is a matter of fact however, that no operator has ever managed to reliably deliver multiple formations of diesel units and GWR are a good example of what happens when such plans meet reality.

That is absolute rubbish.

I have been involved in such delivery on different diesel fleets and it is relatively easy to do, if you have the resources to do it or you set your train plan and depots up to deliver it.

What GWR have been trying to do, with minimum resources, is not going to deliver it reliably, especially as the stock is getting older and spares are taking longer to procure. The west fleet is hopelessly stretched and the slightest failure in the infrastructure can blow the train plan, not only for that day but, thanks to the amount of units outstabling, for the morning run out on the following day.

 

[Towers]

It is a matter of fact however, that no operator has ever managed to reliably deliver multiple formations of diesel units and GWR are a good example of what happens when such plans meet reality.

How do you mean? Northern run all manner of ‘multiple formations of diesel units’ every day of the week. GWR/FGW, as well as Northern, have successfully operated DMUs reformed from their original formations for years. Or do you simply mean using units of differing lengths over the same route?!

 

[Andy Pacer]

How do you mean? Northern run all manner of ‘multiple formations of diesel units’ every day of the week. GWR/FGW, as well as Northern, have successfully operated DMUs reformed from their original formations for years. Or do you simply mean using units of differing lengths over the same route?!

Is the point that it leads to routine short forms?

 

[Towers]

Is the point that it leads to routine short forms?

Perhaps. But that isn’t solved by taking the same number of vehicles and reforming them into fewer units overall!

 

[sh24]

The Cardiff services are pretty quiet west of Exeter anyway.

That's my experience. Losing First is a bit of a shame but a lot of those services carry large amounts of fresh air. This right sizes capacity, and having experienced a couple of 5 for a 9 swops on S Wales series this cannot come soon enough.

 

[geoffk]

The 175s will not of course couple to any other type currently in the GWR fleet. I say "currently" as I understand they will couple to a 180.

 

[John R]

However have to remember that a number of GWR areas are busier than 6 years ago (pre covid).
Bristol -Weymouth is over 23% higher vs pre covid
Bristol-Gloucester is 13% higher than pre covid
Bristol -South Wales is 12% higher than pre covid
Bristol-Portsmouth is about 2% higher than pre covid

Bristol - Gloucester has had its service doubled to half hourly, so I think the 13% increase should be considered in that light.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Transpennine Express, Scotrail, Southern… Central Trains even! Just to name a few operators who have reliably delivered multiple DMU formations over long periods. The key is maintaining reliability of the couplers and not having excessive amounts of reforming of sets over the day etc.

 

[GoneSouth]

I say "currently" as I understand they will couple to a 180.

Are they coming back home

 

[superalbs]

Are they coming back home

No, but they used to be in the fleet!

 

[Deepgreen]

There aren't any booked workings for the 2 cars on the NDL. If they do appear, it will be covering for a 3 car.

Indeed, but they still run too often.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Transpennine Express, Scotrail, Southern… Central Trains even! Just to name a few operators who have reliably delivered multiple DMU formations over long periods. The key is maintaining reliability of the couplers and not having excessive amounts of reforming of sets over the day etc.

Exactly this. Keep the formations on a route constant and don’t reform formations during the working day.

If you keep the unit availabilities at a decent level, you can replace defective units passing by or near to your major maintenance locations with relative ease.

 

[158841]

A great move for these 175s is definitely Cardiff/Plymouth - Penzance, this would release a number of 800s off to help the London services and can easily keep to timing schedules. I would say these are quicker off the mark and quicker to speed than an IET!