Class 175's future?

[Energy]

Sorry to bring an old forum post up, but could Northern use them on Northern Connect? They are already planning to use refurbished 158s on some routes so these would probably be more suitable.

 

[PHILIPE]

Sorry to bring an old forum post up, but could Northern use them on Northern Connect? They are already planning to use refurbished 158s on some routes so these would probably be more suitable.

It's several years yet before they even finish with TFW. A lot of water can go under the bridge yet.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern need to find a number of "class 170-equivalent" units by a certain future date (I don't recall the details). If the 175s are deemed to be 170-equivalent then they could be an option. Whether Northern wants a(nother) temperamental micro-fleet is another thing altogether...

 

[Tynwald]

Class 175 have some major engineering issues, and will be lucky to survive their planned use with TPFW. They would need vast amounts of money spent on them for them to further operated, which is unlikely to happen. Shame, lovely train.

 

[craigybagel]

Northern need to find a number of "class 170-equivalent" units by a certain future date (I don't recall the details). If the 175s are deemed to be 170-equivalent then they could be an option. Whether Northern wants a(nother) temperamental micro-fleet is another thing altogether...

As I've pointed out numerous times on numerous threads 175s are no more temperamental then any other contemporary unit. The perception of them being unreliable is very outdated - after 20 years based in the same maintenance depot they've had their kinks worked out by and large.

That said, the issue of whether or not they count as "170 equivalent" may be decided by what kind of routes they work. Those end doors aren't great for suburban work.

 

[hooverboy]

As I've pointed out numerous times on numerous threads 175s are no more temperamental then any other contemporary unit. The perception of them being unreliable is very outdated - after 20 years based in the same maintenance depot they've had their kinks worked out by and large.

That said, the issue of whether or not they count as "170 equivalent" may be decided by what kind of routes they work. Those end doors aren't great for suburban work.

I think in terms of running and maintainance costs,they are more likely to be phased out fairly soon.
they count as a very expensive 170 equivalent to run, and an even still more expensive 158 equivalent.

there ,of course, could be a market for them, but at a substantially reduced lease price.
I think the engines are the same as the new caf 195's ,so could be cannibalised for spares,and an additional 19x order put in.

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Class 175's use Cummins engines, so not the same as 195's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said, the issue of whether or not they count as "170 equivalent" may be decided by what kind of routes they work. Those end doors aren't great for suburban work.

Particularly if they go anywhere near Picc P13/14.

 

[craigybagel]

Particularly if they go anywhere near Picc P13/14.

Very true. That's one location where the differences between 170s and 175s are readily visible!

 

[mmh]

Very true. That's one location where the differences between 170s and 185s are readily visible!

I guess that's a typo and you mean 175 not 185

I think the importance of door positions is slightly overstated on here, but if the 175s were to used elsewhere I'd like to see them replace standalone fleets of sprinter compatible trains to be used elsewhere where the go-anywhere, couple to everything nature of them could be used rather than wasted.

SWR's 159s and Southern's 171s. The door layout might actually be a problem on London - Uckfield, but also I think many people on a 2car 170 in numerous places across the country would be surprised if they knew 10 car identical trains were the norm elsewhere.

 

[realaledrinker]

Particularly if they go anywhere near Picc P13/14.

Rush hour congestion/from Chester tends to be at Oxford Rd not Piccadilly

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I'm sure the 175s will find a new home, I hear if it's a diesel, can have its guage adjusted, and is a bit more intercity than their existing fleet. Some random operator called Iarnród Éireann will have them apparently lol

 

[craigybagel]

I'm sure the 175s will find a new home, I hear if it's a diesel, can have its guage adjusted, and is a bit more intercity than their existing fleet. Some random operator called Iarnród Éireann will have them apparently lol

I would have been very quick to point out that the last time IÉ acquired trains from Alsthom (around the same time the 175s were built), it was a complete disaster - both the 8200 class EMUs and 2700 class DMUs have been withdrawn from traffic after less then 20 years service (barely 10 in the case of the 8200). Both fleets are sitting stored and the fact that IÉ would rather look to the UK then put them back into service tells you how bad they were.

But I'm sure I read somewhere recently that Alsthom will be part of the consortium designing the new train protection system for IÉ so maybe they've been forgiven after all.....

 

[anamyd]

Class 175's use Cummins engines, so not the same as 195's.

yeah, Cummins N14s, which I believe only 175s have. The non-rail version is in some DAF lorries, but not sure if it's possible to rebuild the non-rail version into the rail version...? The MTU 6H series is the base engine in 172s and 195s/196s. Those classes also have ZF mechanical gearboxes rather than the Voith mechanical transmissions of 175s.

I've not known different classes using the same engines but different transmission type out of hydraulic or mechanical gearbox (168s/170s/171s have Voith hydraulic transmission but with MTU 6R series engines, not 6H series. They may seem similar but a 6H was tried out in a 170 and it didn't take well to it, in a sort of fiery way.) I've only known different classes using the same engines but different transmission type out of hydraulic or electric transmission (Cummins QSK19s in hydraulic transmission 180s/185s and electric transmission 220s/221s/222s).

 

[anamyd]

I guess that's a typo and you mean 175 not 185

or even 175 not 170!

 

[CosherB]

Would there be any merit (i.e. make this micro-fleet more attractive to future users) if a proposal was made to make them all four car units (total of ~270 seats each)? This would be achieved by the 175/1s having two trailers (to give eight four car units) and run the remaining 19 175/0s in pairs (clearly with one as a spare).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Rush hour congestion/from Chester tends to be at Oxford Rd not Piccadilly

I was talking about them being used by Northern.

 

[craigybagel]

I guess that's a typo and you mean 175 not 185
.

or even 175 not 170!

Thanks, fixed now. I meant the difference between 170s and 175s.

Rush hour congestion/from Chester tends to be at Oxford Rd not Piccadilly

Yes but it's not specifically Chester trains that are the problem - it's any train with end doors takes longer to load then one with ⅓ ⅔ doors, regardless of where it's going. 175s are going to take longer to board then 170s, and on a line as congested as the one through 13 and 14 at Piccadilly, that is an issue.

I've not known different classes using the same engines but different transmission type out of hydraulic or mechanical gearbox (168s/170s/171s have Voith hydraulic transmission but with MTU 6R series engines, not 6H series. They may seem similar but a 6H was tried out in a 170 and it didn't take well to it, in a sort of fiery way.) I've only known different classes using the same engines but different transmission type out of hydraulic or electric transmission (Cummins QSK19s in hydraulic transmission 180s/185s and electric transmission 220s/221s/222s).

There's always 158834, the only TfW 158 with a 4 speed Voith DIWA transmission. It was fitted as a trial some 4 or 5 years ago and is still going strong, despite it never being extended to any other units.

 

[43096]

yeah, Cummins N14s, which I believe only 175s have. The non-rail version is in some DAF lorries, but not sure if it's possible to rebuild the non-rail version into the rail version...? The MTU 6H series is the base engine in 172s and 195s/196s. Those classes also have ZF mechanical gearboxes rather than the Voith mechanical transmissions of 175s.

I've not known different classes using the same engines but different transmission type out of hydraulic or mechanical gearbox (168s/170s/171s have Voith hydraulic transmission but with MTU 6R series engines, not 6H series. They may seem similar but a 6H was tried out in a 170 and it didn't take well to it, in a sort of fiery way.) I've only known different classes using the same engines but different transmission type out of hydraulic or electric transmission (Cummins QSK19s in hydraulic transmission 180s/185s and electric transmission 220s/221s/222s).

158s all have the same transmission (except 158834) with three different types of engine.

 

[TheWalrus]

GWR on 3+2 formations for the Cardiff Pompey services I think would be a great fit!

Better than a turbo combo too.

I agree totally!

 

[Parallel]

I agree totally!

Would be a dream, but probably never going to happen. Would also be good on long distance regional services between Cardiff/Bristol and Devon and Cornwall too. But also never going to happen!

 

[anamyd]

There's always 158834, the only TfW 158 with a 4 speed Voith DIWA transmission. It was fitted as a trial some 4 or 5 years ago and is still going strong, despite it never being extended to any other units.

ah yes, forgot about that! fitted in 2015

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's always 158834, the only TfW 158 with a 4 speed Voith DIWA transmission. It was fitted as a trial some 4 or 5 years ago and is still going strong, despite it never being extended to any other units.

Presumably it didn't save enough fuel to be worth the cost of converting the others, but isn't otherwise unreliable or bad in any way to be worth converting it back.

 

[anamyd]

158s all have the same transmission (except 158834) with three different types of engine.

very true!

 

[TheWalrus]

Would be a dream, but probably never going to happen. Would also be good on long distance regional services between Cardiff/Bristol and Devon and Cornwall too. But also never going to happen!

It may be unlikely but definitely not impossible.

 

[thenorthern]

I can't see them being withdrawn anytime soon I think they could move to other operators if they are surplus to requirements at Transport for Wales, they are much newer than a lot of stock used by other operators and they have 100mph top speed which is more than the sprinter and pacers can do.

I know the person who created the NW Coast Railway website I should ask him if there are any updates.

 

[anamyd]

I can't see them being withdrawn anytime soon I think they could move to other operators if they are surplus to requirements at Transport for Wales, they are much newer than a lot of stock used by other operators and they have 100mph top speed which is more than the sprinter and pacers can do.

I know the person who created the NW Coast Railway website I should ask him if there are any updates.

age isn't everything. they're a cost-cut build. however the work Alstom have just started doing to them may significantly prolong their lives

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Putting aside the reliability issues (or non-issues) for a moment, the 175s seem the ideal unit for longer-distance rural or regional express services. The end doors will be a problem through Castlefield without 15/16, so I'd keep them generally East of the Pennines. The large windows and almost inter-city feel would be great on Carlisle to Leeds and Newcastle, even Hope Valley stoppers would suit them as they would only use terminal platforms at Piccadilly.

 

[js1000]

At this moment in time, I highly doubt Northern would want the surplus 175s. They currently operate 16 different classes. Part of the plan to reduce the subsidy is to rationalise the fleet types and which will reduce maintenance costs and improve efficiency.

By 2022, the hope is this will be halved to about 8. The requirement for 22 additional DMUs at Northern will (most logically) be achieved by taking WMTs 23 170s once the new 196s are in service.

The only way Northern would be interested in the 175 is if the new Northern trains become a victim of their own success and enticed new passengers. Judging by the TransPennine Express and Manchester Metrolink I wouldn't put this past it happening but for now it's a long shot.

 

[43096]

At this moment in time, I highly doubt Northern would want the surplus 175s. They currently operate 16 different classes. Part of the plan to reduce the subsidy is to rationalise the fleet types and which will reduce maintenance costs and improve efficiency.

By 2022, the hope is this will be halved to about 8. The requirement for 22 additional DMUs at Northern will (most logically) be achieved by taking WMTs 23 170s once the new 196s are in service.

The only way Northern would be interested in the 175 is if the new Northern trains become a victim of their own success and enticed new passengers. Judging by the TransPennine Express and Manchester Metrolink I wouldn't put this past it happening but for now it's a long shot.

By my reckoning Northern started the franchise with 11 types (142/144/150/153/155/156/158/319/321-2/323/333). I would not class 321 and 322 as different types - from a maintenance perspective they're identical.
Once the changes are completed (assuming they stick to the plan) they will have 10 types (150/155/156/158/170/195/319/331/333/769).

That is hardly standardisation. Standardisation would have seen more 195s and no 170s transferred in, and the 155s binned off as well.