Class 185 4 car unit

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by graham43404, 22 Oct 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. graham43404

    graham43404 Member

    Messages:
    214
    Joined:
    21 Jul 2011
    Location:
    Bolton
    First of all apologies if this has been mentioned before.

    We are in Edinburgh and were just passing over the rail bridge at Princes Garden. There was a class 185 TPE coming into Waverly and both my wife and I are convinced we saw it as a 4 car unit. I am sure it has been done and seen before but its the first time I have known or seen it run as four.

    Ps, we're not losing the plot are we? :lol:
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. 150222

    150222 Member

    Messages:
    1,002
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2011


    Well it would be abit difficult to say the least. No i think you imagined it. Are you sure it was not a 380?
     
  4. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    18,349
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Redcar
    Well it's probably doable but you'd have to take the MSO out of an existing 185 unit to do it and I would have thought someone round here would have picked up on TPE doing that (and the fact that there would a a 2-car unit running around!). So I have to say it seems rather unlikely that you saw one ;)

    Having said that I sat in a 185 the other day and according to the signage on the windows I was sat in coach F!
     
  5. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    29,161
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Unless there has been an accident and a 185 centre car has been put in to another unit on a temporary basis then there is no 4 car 185.

    However, anyone who can miscount carriages to be more than they actually are has a good chance of getting a high paid job at DfT.
     
  6. graham43404

    graham43404 Member

    Messages:
    214
    Joined:
    21 Jul 2011
    Location:
    Bolton
    It was a 185 for sure as I saw it from a distance and remarked about it coming from Man Airport and it was First TPE colours as well with its coupling bagged over at the front with a yellow tie. I said to my wife am I seeing things and she said she saw the same and that's before the whisky! :lol:

    I am hoping it will be in Waverly in about another 20mins when we get back down there.
     
  7. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

    Messages:
    6,032
    Joined:
    24 Feb 2007
    Location:
    Redcar
    Wasn't there one set out of action after the incident at Summit Tunnel earlier in the year? Or is that back in service now?

    Although I do agree it is extremely unlikely that the OP did see a 4 car set, I am sure that the rareness of such a set would have already made headlines here or elsewhere.
     
  8. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    18,349
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Redcar
    Unfortunately unless it's broken down it won't be as it should be departing at this moment back to Manchester.
     
  9. graham43404

    graham43404 Member

    Messages:
    214
    Joined:
    21 Jul 2011
    Location:
    Bolton
    You were right about that as it wasn't here when we got to the station.

    I really wanted to see it for curiousity and for sanity's sake even though I know it must have been a three car unit.
     
  10. northernrail

    northernrail Member

    Messages:
    596
    Joined:
    6 Sep 2010
    Location:
    Middleton,Manchester
    Its back in service, it left Manchester Picadilly for Manchester Airport about a hour ago.
     
  11. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,588
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    The joys of using doubled up 185s on the Lancashire services and classing the coaches A-F (but not renaming them once the service splits)...
     
  12. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    18,349
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Redcar
    Ahh of course that would explain it wouldn't it! Why didn't I think of that?!
     
  13. Crossover

    Crossover Established Member

    Messages:
    7,384
    Joined:
    4 Jun 2009
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I suspect it is a miscount - on a number of occasions I have counted the carriages twice to find on an occasion I have, say, counted a carriage twice by accident (at a shallow angle it can be hard to tell where one starts and the other ends)

    That said, until someone can say for sure (TRUST will show these things won't they?) I'm not going to dismiss it, but I am going to say it is pretty unlikely.
     
  14. rail-britain

    rail-britain Established Member

    Messages:
    4,105
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2007
    I am not aware of a rail bridge at Princes Garden
    From memory the views from the foot bridge at Princes Gardens aren't very good, so it could be mistaken for a six coach Class 185 or a pair of Class 158 units (if viewed from the side and on the embankment next to the rail line where the visibility is very poor)

    I know I have watched trains going past when walking to/from NCP Castle Terrace and made some mistakes until on the other side of the bridge confirming exactly what I had seen
     
  15. graham43404

    graham43404 Member

    Messages:
    214
    Joined:
    21 Jul 2011
    Location:
    Bolton
    It was the road bridge over the rail tracks that winds up towards the Royal Mile.

    It was head onto us when coming from Haymarket to Waverley and right from the first second I could see it was a Class 185 with it's distinctive front and colour scheme. Like I say both of us are pretty sure we saw a 4 car train, but it was underneath us and out of sight due to the tunnel before we could check again.

    Is there any mileage that TPE knew that a three car unti would struggle with it being the end of the Scottish Holidays and the start of the English ones? Or should I get that eye test booked soon? :lol:
     
  16. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,588
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Sadly TPE know that a lot of their short trains will struggle (e.g. two coach DMUs between Sheffield and Manchester, three coach DMUs between Manchester and Leeds)... about the only place that gets trains that can comfortably cope with passenger numbers on most trips are the Barrow line (beyond Lancaster) and the Windermere branch.

    I wish they had the resources to be able to mix/match service to demand like this. However even if they did have spare units,they'd probably run a six coach instead of a three (rather than splitting DMUs up - could a two-coach 185 even work?)
     
  17. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,058
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    Then wouldn't they also know that it would be better to have 2x 3 car units in service tan 1x 4 car unit :?:


    (Assuming a 2 car 185 won't work
     
  18. andylloyd

    andylloyd Member

    Messages:
    441
    Joined:
    19 Feb 2007
    Location:
    Gateshead, Tyne & Wear
    On a seperate note.
    Last week I noticed a double headed 185 service from Liverpool to Newcastle....
    Very rare to see a six car 185 up in the North East :)
     
  19. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,163
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Where did you see this? There's only one direct train a day from Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle (at 06:15, the rest run from Manchester Airport) as far as I know, which runs as a pair of 185s to York and then splits with one unit going forward to Scarborough. A six-car formation would be unable to use any of the bay platforms at Newcastle that the TPE services normally use.
     
  20. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    24,370
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The very best part of rural Cheshire East.
    Remind me, who was it in their infinite wisdom, decided that 3-car Class 185 sets were preferable to 4-car Class 185 sets, when the contract had to be placed and their reasons for this justification.
     
  21. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    29,161
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    In their bid for the TPE franchise First Group stated 56 x 3 car DMUs with option to extend to 4 cars subject to demand, compared to Arriva's bid of 4 car DEMUs (likely would have been a class 223 similar to a Voyager or Meridian.)

    The government decided to cut the TPE order to 51 trains, with the intention that the 170s that SWT didn't want would make up the numbers. In the end Southern took on an extra 170 to convert to a 171 and TPE got 8 x SWT 170s and 1 x CT 170.

    Then when the option for the 4th car was looked at the government said sorry no funds. They later looked at the option again but it was too late as the production line for 185s had been shut down.
     
    Last edited: 23 Oct 2011
  22. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,163
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    I believe it would have been the Strategic Rail Authority. The original proposal was for sixty 185s, but this was cut to fifty one 3-car units, with an option for an additional fourth carriage if demand warranted it. Unfortunately, the option for an additional carriage in each unit was never taken up, and the production line closed down. It was probably for the sake of ensuring a train order for the minimum cost.
     
  23. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

    Messages:
    29,161
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Unless it was a Sunday, where the 20:22 service from Lime Street goes to Newcastle.
     
  24. 150222

    150222 Member

    Messages:
    1,002
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2011


    I have just seen a 6 car 185 at darlington on the 16.48 to newcastle!
     
  25. Flying Snail

    Flying Snail Member

    Messages:
    778
    Joined:
    12 Dec 2006
    That is a total cop-out.

    The 185s are easily powerful enough to cope with an unpowered trailer being used as a fourth car. To add 51 185 compatible trailers on one of the later electric desiro production runs would not have been a major issue, except for the funding of course which is why we are stuck with 3 car sets that only seat 30 odd SC passengers more than a 2 car 158.
     
  26. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,588
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Instead of an unpowered coach, what about a pantograph coach from a 350 (if more 350s are built)?

    A bi-mode 185?
     
  27. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

    Messages:
    9,342
    Joined:
    14 Jul 2011
    would have to run on that coach alone under electric power due to the hydraulic transmissions.... even with all four axles powered it would be rather sluggish.
     
  28. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,163
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Good grief, that is quite a surprise! Must use one of the through platforms at Newcastle like the 6-car 158 formations (and some of the 5-car) of old used to.
     
  29. Scotrail84

    Scotrail84 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,742
    Joined:
    5 Jul 2010
    Defo only a 3 car. Mrs Scotrsil84 was on that said train.
     
  30. 150222

    150222 Member

    Messages:
    1,002
    Joined:
    9 Jul 2011
    It definately was 6 car. I was stood on platform 3.
     
  31. 142094

    142094 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,770
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Newcastle
    The early morning service that goes direct from Newcastle to Liv Lime Street was formed of a 6-car service the last time I was on it. Caused a problem at Thirsk where the conductor had to lock out a couple of the doors due to the short platform. Might still be the case that this working is doubled up.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page