Class 185s: Twenty-two about to go off lease?

[ben2012]

Not sure but arant 22 of the Cl 185s due off lease at end of this month.?
And I heard that there was a short term lease being talked about on Twitter foes any one have Details?

 

[J4mez]

Not sure but arant 22 of the Cl 185s due off lease at end of this month.?
And I heard that there was a short term lease being talked about on Twitter foes any one have Details?

I heard that TPE was keeping them all, there was speculations regarding TPE taking the Liverpool to Nottingham service from East Midlands Railways.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

IIRC only 15 are now due to go off lease with them all remaining if the Liverpool to Nottingham transfers to TPE

 

[tpjm]

I saw the tweet in question - it's wrong.

Just to build on a post I stuck in a different thread recently...

From December the plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS

Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 (excluding stoppers) up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 14 units for MBR - MIA (to Redcar)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper
= 42 Units

Given the hand back of the Class 350s and any potential infant mortality of the new trains, there is merit for TPE to keep all 51 Cl185s for the time being.


Early next year 6 out of 7 MBR-MIA diagrams will become Mk5a, theoretically releasing 12 units, this should then create a daily diagram surplus of 21 units.

Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are rejoined at HUD, they will be able to run as 6 car sets.

Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units

You're then left with 3 'spare' units. Once you factor in appropriate maintenance regimes which would most likely involve some off-peak 3 car running, it's clear that there is a very workable case for keeping them all!

Don't believe everything you read on Twitter, folks!

 

[ainsworth74]

I saw the tweet in question - it's wrong.

Just to build on a post I stuck in a different thread recently...

From December the plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS

Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 (excluding stoppers) up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 14 units for MBR - MIA (to Redcar)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper
= 42 Units

Given the hand back of the Class 350s and any potential infant mortality of the new trains, there is merit for TPE to keep all 51 Cl185s for the time being.


Early next year 6 out of 7 MBR-MIA diagrams will become Mk5a, theoretically releasing 12 units, this should then create a daily diagram surplus of 21 units.

Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are rejoined at HUD, they will be able to run as 6 car sets.

Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units

You're then left with 3 'spare' units. Once you factor in appropriate maintenance regimes which would most likely involve some off-peak 3 car running, it's clear that there is a very workable case for keeping them all!

Don't believe everything you read on Twitter, folks!

This is exactly why, if I could find a bookie to take the bet, I'd put some money on TPE keeping all the 185s...

 

[158820]

I saw the tweet in question - it's wrong.

Just to build on a post I stuck in a different thread recently...

From December the plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS

Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 (excluding stoppers) up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 14 units for MBR - MIA (to Redcar)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper
= 42 Units

Given the hand back of the Class 350s and any potential infant mortality of the new trains, there is merit for TPE to keep all 51 Cl185s for the time being.


Early next year 6 out of 7 MBR-MIA diagrams will become Mk5a, theoretically releasing 12 units, this should then create a daily diagram surplus of 21 units.

Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are rejoined at HUD, they will be able to run as 6 car sets.

Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units

You're then left with 3 'spare' units. Once you factor in appropriate maintenance regimes which would most likely involve some off-peak 3 car running, it's clear that there is a very workable case for keeping them all!

Don't believe everything you read on Twitter, folks!

Thanks JM for ypur informed reporting. Much appreciated

 

[JonathanH]

From December the plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS

Surely this won't be achieved until some time well into the new year?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

IIRC only 15 are now due to go off lease with them all remaining if the Liverpool to Nottingham transfers to TPE

Yep that’s what I heard

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I saw the tweet in question - it's wrong.

Just to build on a post I stuck in a different thread recently...

From December the plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS

Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 (excluding stoppers) up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 14 units for MBR - MIA (to Redcar)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper
= 42 Units

Given the hand back of the Class 350s and any potential infant mortality of the new trains, there is merit for TPE to keep all 51 Cl185s for the time being.


Early next year 6 out of 7 MBR-MIA diagrams will become Mk5a, theoretically releasing 12 units, this should then create a daily diagram surplus of 21 units.

Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are rejoined at HUD, they will be able to run as 6 car sets.

Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units

You're then left with 3 'spare' units. Once you factor in appropriate maintenance regimes which would most likely involve some off-peak 3 car running, it's clear that there is a very workable case for keeping them all!

Don't believe everything you read on Twitter, folks!

MIA to MBR is also mark 5a. Does your count include 6 coaches as TPE plan to run 6 coaches on Cleethorpes and Hull routes

 

[LittleAH]

MIA to MBR is also mark 5a. Does your count include 6 coaches as TPE plan to run 6 coaches on Cleethorpes and Hull routes

Middlesbrough won't be Nova 3 in December, as they've only accepted 5 and are focusing training on Nova 1 & 2. Plus TPJM works for TPE, so will know more than us.

 

[swt_passenger]

MIA to MBR is also mark 5a. Does your count include 6 coaches as TPE plan to run 6 coaches on Cleethorpes and Hull routes

Both your points are already covered in post #4? He refers to all 185 routes being 6 car except the stoppers, and Middlesbrough will transfer later.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Both your points are already covered in post #4? He refers to all 185 routes being 6 car except the stoppers, and Middlesbrough will transfer later.

sorry missed those

 

[tpjm]

Plus TPJM works for TPE, so will know more than us.

DISCLAIMER: I don't work in Train Planning so have no factual 'knowledge' of the future trains operation. My comments are simply derived from lateral thinking on what it takes to deliver today's (and December's) train plan.

If we don't get LIV>NOT I can imagine us releasing some Cl 185s which our friends at Northern may be able to put to good use, but hopefully (fingers crossed) we get it and are able to retain all 51 units. Imagine that? TPE with 95 trains!

 

[YorkshireBear]

We assume tpe are going to 6 car everything which may or may not be true. I think the real reason they'll keep em is no one else will want to pay the high operating costs for em!

 

[Townsend Hook]

Presumably it's not out of the question that a number of 185s might go off-lease and into warm storage until the DfT confirms that LIV-NOT will be transferring to TPE? If any did go off-lease, the ROSCO wouldn't exactly be rushing to get them on lease to someone else given their specialised nature and the fact that TPE would very likely be able to make use of them again soon.

 

[ainsworth74]

Gentle reminder that this isn't a speculation thread. If anyone wants to consider possible future uses for the 185s if they were to leave TPE then I do believe we have thread already running on that somewhere or other. Equally if anyone wants to talk about changing something fundamental about them such as removing an engine they are welcome to start a new thread in Speculative Ideas about that.

Otherwise lets try and stay focused on what's actually happening the 185s and in particular those that are potentially about to come off lease.

 

[4REP]

I saw the tweet in question - it's wrong.

Just to build on a post I stuck in a different thread recently...

From December the plan is to use:
Cl 802: LIV - EDB, MIA - NCL
Cl 397: MIA - EDB, MIA - GLC, LIV - GLC
MkVa: LIV - SCA
Cl 185: MIA - CLE, MAN - HUL, MIA - MBR, MAN - HUD, HUD - LDS

Quickly throwing some numbers out, if you made all workings that are to remain as Cl185 (excluding stoppers) up to 6 cars, you’d need:
10 units for HUL - MAN
+ 14 units for CLE - MIA
+ 14 units for MBR - MIA (to Redcar)
+ 2 units for MAN - HUD stopper
+ 2 units for LDS - HUD stopper
= 42 Units

Given the hand back of the Class 350s and any potential infant mortality of the new trains, there is merit for TPE to keep all 51 Cl185s for the time being.


Early next year 6 out of 7 MBR-MIA diagrams will become Mk5a, theoretically releasing 12 units, this should then create a daily diagram surplus of 21 units.

Once Platform 0 is completed at Leeds and the stoppers are rejoined at HUD, they will be able to run as 6 car sets.

Then there’s the potential of the Liverpool - Nottingham services...
+ 14 units for LIV - NOT
= 48 units

You're then left with 3 'spare' units. Once you factor in appropriate maintenance regimes which would most likely involve some off-peak 3 car running, it's clear that there is a very workable case for keeping them all!

Don't believe everything you read on Twitter, folks!

And dont forget you need some in for maintenance each day so a few more needed to cover for that

 

[tpjm]

And dont forget you need some in for maintenance each day so a few more needed to cover for that

As I said...

You're then left with 3 'spare' units. Once you factor in appropriate maintenance regimes which would most likely involve some off-peak 3 car running, it's clear that there is a very workable case for keeping them all!

 

[Energy]

Northern seem to be having issues with its older stock, like 319s, so I wouldn't be surprised if northern lease some from TPE, they already lease a 180 from Grand Central and have leased 185s before.

Also they 397s haven't gone into service yet...

 

[Failed Unit]

TPE are very lucky that the ROSCO has leased out the units based on the intial new stock rollout. This could have very easily ended in tears (and probably would have if they were 170s) like the time the Rosco signed a deal with Chiltern for the 170s all those years ago. Introducing rolling stock seems a risky business, when other TOCs want the assets. Scotrail have got stung by this with the why should the next user of the rolling stocks contract be breached because the one that terminated the lease replacement isn't in place.

 

[JonathanH]

Northern seem to be having issues with its older stock, like 319s, so I wouldn't be surprised if northern lease some from TPE

Northern is not going to lease 185s to substitute for 319s or Pacers or anything else.

 

[tpjm]

Northern is not going to lease 185s to substitute for 319s or Pacers or anything else.

I doubt it’s the end goal, but we know it’s been mandated by the DfT before. I think Northern would struggle to explain to the treasury why they weren’t using Class 185s if the alternative was them being sat somewhere in warm storage. (Not that I think TPE will have any surplus 185s for the considerable future)

 

[JonathanH]

I think Northern would struggle to explain to the treasury

Huh? What have the treasury got to do with it? They won't want to increase the subsidy to a train company just to ensure trains aren't sat in sidings.

The treasury aren't interested in ROSCOs having void periods for their rolling stock no more than they are interested in any other private company. Are you suggesting they are worried about the lower corporation tax they might get from the ROSCOs?

 

[Failed Unit]

What is stopping another operator from leasing the 185s (even an open access) and causing TPE service chaos. I assume they are now on a rolling contract?

 

[JonathanH]

What is stopping another operator from leasing the 185s (even an open access) and causing TPE service chaos. I assume they are now on a rolling contract?

No immediate need for them on any other service.

It is up to the ROSCO as to whether they want to enter into negotiations should another operator approach them.

As you wrote, if they were 170s the demand might be different.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If TPE takes over Liverpool-Nottingham and uses the spare 185s, there's the small matter of the displaced 158s from the EMR service.
There should be plenty of demand for those for the next decade or so.
Having said that, there's no rush for DfT to negotiate the route transfer.

 

[Energy]

Northern have previously leased 185s from TPE and apparently there have been issues with 319s, the replacement 323s from WMR won't be arriving for a few years so the quick solution is lease a few surplus units from TPE.

 

[sd0733]

If TPE takes over Liverpool-Nottingham and uses the spare 185s, there's the small matter of the displaced 158s from the EMR service.
There should be plenty of demand for those for the next decade or so.
Having said that, there's no rush for DfT to negotiate the route transfer.

The 158s are planned to be going off-lease anyway so will all be up for grabs within a few years alongside the Tfw 158 fleet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 158s are planned to be going off-lease anyway so will all be up for grabs within a few years alongside the Tfw 158 fleet.

Plenty of TOCs would find uses for 158s to start a cascade.

 

[JonathanH]

Northern have previously leased 185s from TPE and apparently there have been issues with 319s, the replacement 323s from WMR won't be arriving for a few years so the quick solution is lease a few surplus units from TPE.

Northern have a fleet of 331s being introduced which deal with any issues with the worst of the 319s - they do not need 185s to substitute for 319s and they are now using 195s on the remaining diesel routes where 185s operated.