Class 195 allocations and formations

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Philip

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How do you expect the 195s to be diagrammed when they enter service? With 25 2-car units is it likely there will be any diagrams/daytime services formed of single 2-coach trains, or is it more likely to be 10-11 diagrams of doubled up 195/0s for the busier services, with the 3-car units operating singularly on the quieter diagrams?

They are going to be used across a large number of routes, across a wide area. Which routes do you think ought to get the longer formations?

Whoever has the job of diagramming these units has quite a complex job on their hands in getting the balance right - there don't seem to be any easy answers, because they're going to be used on so many different routes.

Shall we use this thread to post any suggestions and ideas about how they'll be used, in a similar way to the '185-future' thread? Am quite interested to see how they'll juggle these units to give the best possible capacity across all of their routes.

Just a reminder of the routes they'll be operating, some existing and some new:

Blackpool-York
Chester-Leeds via Bradford
Liverpool-Bradford
Manchester Airport-Bradford
Manchester Airport-Barrow
Manchester Airport-Liverpool via Warrington
Nottingham-Leeds
Sheffield-Lincoln (surprisingly)

Have I missed any?
 
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aformeruser

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Northern have asked for platform extensions so that 6 x 23m car trains can be used between Leeds and Hebden Bridge so that kind of gives a clue they'll be using the 3 car ones doubled up.
 

Philip

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Northern have asked for platform extensions so that 6 x 23m car trains can be used between Leeds and Hebden Bridge so that kind of gives a clue they'll be using the 3 car ones doubled up.

Won't it leave them short of units if they start doubling up the 3-car ones as well? I really can't see how they'd cope running many single 2-car diagrams considering these are mainly very busy routes. The fleet already seems a bit stretched to cover all these routes, before you even consider doubling up many units.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't understand why they have been so mind-numbingly stupid as to order non-gangwayed 2-car units. They should have been 3s and 4s, or at least had end gangways.
 

aformeruser

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Won't it leave them short of units if they start doubling up the 3-car ones as well? I really can't see how they'd cope running many single 2-car diagrams considering these are mainly very busy routes. The fleet already seems a bit stretched to cover all these routes, before you even consider doubling up many units.

It doesn't mean they'll be regular 6 car formations it means the maximum length formation on Calder Valley will be 6 car. Currently there's 4 car 158s and 5 car Pacers on Calder Valley but most services are run by considerably shorter formations.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't understand why they have been so mind-numbingly stupid as to order non-gangwayed 2-car units. They should have been 3s and 4s, or at least had end gangways.

I can understand why they've ordered 2 and 3 car units - they have to be suitable to cascade to rural routes unlikely to ever be electrified later in their lives. However, I can't understand why they've not bothered with gangways other than saving money.
 

J-2739

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I don't understand why they have been so mind-numbingly stupid as to order non-gangwayed 2-car units. They should have been 3s and 4s, or at least had end gangways.

Perhaps CAF Civity doesn't specify with end gangways? Or maybe current Crashworthy standards that changes the design of the train makes it undesirable to include a gangway?

(btw, I not sure myself, these are just educated guesses)
 

Philip

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Shouldn't be thinking about later years when all of these routes are electrified (if they ever are), it's the present that counts and the priority should be to provide the maximum capacity possible without wasting it and I'm sure 3 and 4 coach sets won't be wasted!

What do people expect the busiest routes to be? I have to say I'm surprised Sheffield-Lincoln is going to be a Northern Connect (195) route. Can think of some routes which 195s would be more appropriate for, but which are retaining Sprinters.

Manchester Airport to Barrow will be served for the most part by the Scotland service, if 195/0s are to run in single formation at all then I'd think Barrow and Lincoln will be the first choices to allocate them on.
 
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aformeruser

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Shouldn't be thinking about later years when all of these routes are electrified (if they ever are), it's the present that counts and the priority should be to provide the maximum capacity possible without wasting it and I'm sure 3 and 4 coach sets won't be wasted!

The ROSCOs were only going to agree to order new DMUs if they were versatile enough to cascade to rural routes later in their lives but the TOCs can't justify introducing brand new stock on rural lines due to the business case. Hence they have to be suitable for both kinds of routes.

Manchester Airport to Barrow will be served for the most part by the Scotland service, if 195/0s are to run in single formation at all then I'd think Barrow and Lincoln will be the first choices to allocate them on.

Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere and Scotland will switch routes so the Scottish services go via Bolton and the Cumbria services go via Wigan.
 
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J-2739

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What do people expect the busiest routes to be? I have to say I'm surprised Sheffield-Lincoln is going to be a Northern Connect (195) route. Can think of some routes which 195s would be more appropriate for, but which are retaining Sprinters.

Actually, the Sheffield to Lincoln route is going to be extended up to Leeds via Barnsley, and that part can have heavy loading during the peaks.
 

Bletchleyite

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Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere and Scotland will switch routes so the Scottish services go via Bolton and the Cumbria services go via Wigan.

So, other than the portion working with splits/joins at Bolton and Preston, back the way it was prior to the 1998 service increases! :)
 

Philip

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The ROSCOs were only going to agree to order new DMUs if they were versatile enough to cascade to rural routes later in their lives but the TOCs can't justify introducing brand new stock on rural lines due to the business case. Hence they have to be suitable for both kinds of routes.



Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere and Scotland will switch routes so the Scottish services go via Bolton and the Cumbria services go via Wigan.

But other than Wigan it's the same and Wigan will be getting an enhanced Leeds service using 170s, which should take the pressure off the Connect service.
 

edwin_m

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Northern have asked for platform extensions so that 6 x 23m car trains can be used between Leeds and Hebden Bridge so that kind of gives a clue they'll be using the 3 car ones doubled up.

There will be 170s as well as 195s using this route, so it may be that the 170s double up instead.
 

aformeruser

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There will be 170s as well as 195s using this route, so it may be that the 170s double up instead.

No 170s will be used via Dewsbury not Bradford plus the Southport and Kirby lines are getting platform extensions to allow up to 5 x 23m so the longest formation possible on Southport to Leeds or the other Southport/Kirby services would be a 5 car 158 or a 3 car 170 + 2 car 158.
 
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edwin_m

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No 170s will be used via Dewsbury not Bradford plus the Southport and Kirby lines are getting platform extensions to allow up to 5 x 23m so the longest formation possible on Southport to Leeds or the other Southport/Kirby services would be a 5 car 158 or a 3 car 170 + 2 car 158.

Thanks for the information. I was going by mention of Hebden Bridge which is common to both routes.
 

aformeruser

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Thanks for the information. I was going by mention of Hebden Bridge which is common to both routes.

I should have copied it completely as it does say Hebden Bridge-Bradford Interchange-Leeds.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just a reminder of the routes they'll be operating, some existing and some new:

Blackpool-York
Chester-Leeds via Bradford
Liverpool-Bradford
Manchester Airport-Bradford
Manchester Airport-Barrow
Manchester Airport-Liverpool via Warrington
Nottingham-Leeds
Sheffield-Lincoln (surprisingly)

Have I missed any?

You've missed Hull-Sheffield. Also it will be Nottingham-Bradford via a speeded up route avoiding Barnsley with Lincoln services continuing to Leeds via Barnsley. It also looks like all Manchester to Bradford services will continue to Leeds.
 
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Hophead

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Perhaps CAF Civity doesn't specify with end gangways? Or maybe current Crashworthy standards that changes the design of the train makes it undesirable to include a gangway?

(btw, I not sure myself, these are just educated guesses)

Or, perhaps (and hopefully) options on some extra centre cars
 

aformeruser

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Or, perhaps (and hopefully) options on some extra centre cars

The wording of the franchise agreement suggests extra 170s (if available) are the more likely option for additional DMUs opposed to additional 195s.
 

Philip

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So out of a total of 55 units let's assume around 7 will be in the shed for maintenance and so a total of 48 in service on a typical weekday.

Manchester Airport-Barrow: 4 units
Manchester Airport-Liverpool: 3 units
Manchester Airport-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Liverpool-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Chester-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Blackpool-York: 5 units
Nottingham-Bradford: 5 units
Lincoln-Leeds via Sheff: 4 units
Sheffield-Hull: 4 units

So that's around 40 units just to cover the basic diagrams they'll be working to, before any strengthening takes place. There won't be that many units available for doubling up really. I thought it looked a bit stretched.
 

Frothy

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So out of a total of 55 units let's assume around 7 will be in the shed for maintenance and so a total of 48 in service on a typical weekday.

Manchester Airport-Barrow: 4 units
Manchester Airport-Liverpool: 3 units
Manchester Airport-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Liverpool-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Chester-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Blackpool-York: 5 units
Nottingham-Bradford: 5 units
Lincoln-Leeds via Sheff: 4 units
Sheffield-Hull: 4 units

So that's around 40 units just to cover the basic diagrams they'll be working to, before any strengthening takes place. There won't be that many units available for doubling up really. I thought it looked a bit stretched.
The Bradford-Manchester Airport is not extended back to Leeds but I don't think that would save a unit.

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Philip

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The Bradford-Manchester Airport is not extended back to Leeds but I don't think that would save a unit.

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On the last page it was stated that all Calder Valley services from the West will continue to Leeds. I may be underestimating the allocation needed for Chester-Leeds too, may need 6 units. Either way it looks like there'll be a fair few 2-car diagrams running as single units throughout the day. I wonder whether Man Airport-Bradford may be cut to give a bit more flexibility? Of all of the new NC services, this one seems the most questionable. Just an easy change at Leeds for Bradford-Piccadilly-Airport passengers.
 

aformeruser

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On the last page it was stated that all Calder Valley services from the West will continue to Leeds.

The map on the Northern site indicates that unless they've got their colours wrong.

If Windermere goes electric they could run the token services at times which frees up the diesel unit on the Barrow for strengthening. Plus there could be interworking at stations like Leeds to prevent layovers between services which may free up a couple of units
 

edwin_m

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It does look very much as if most of the diesel non-Connect services will still be pre-privatisation DMUs. Several of the Connect routes replace existing services so some units will be displaced, but these will be mostly 158s which aren't really suitable for the suburban routes where strengthening is most needed and where the Pacers are now. Northern is supposed to be getting 150s from GWR but are they also putting some 158s off-lease? Alternatively I guess the 158s could push 150s and 156s off some of their more rural routes onto commuter services, though 156s aren't ideal for this.
 
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aformeruser

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It does look very much as if most of the diesel non-Connect services will still be pre-privatisation DMUs.

I don't think there's been any suggestion that 195s will be used on non-Connect services. Maybe there could be one or two workings on non-Connect routes in lieu of ECS moves but I don't think we can expect anything else. The 170s have been confirmed for Southport-Leeds and Leeds-Harrogate. Given a couple of years ago we were expecting Scotrail to release over 50 x 170s it's disappointing that Northern are only getting 16 x 170s, with the option of more 170s or equivalents by 2022.

Several of the Connect routes replace existing services so some units will be displaced, but these will be mostly 158s which aren't really suitable for the suburban routes where strengthening is most needed and where the Pacers are now. Northern is supposed to be getting 150s from GWR but are they also putting some 158s off-lease? Alternatively I guess the 158s could push 150s and 156s off some of their more rural routes onto commuter services, though 156s aren't ideal for this.

Northern are getting 8 more 158s - they aren't releasing any. There's some clues in the franchise agreement about which lines will get which stock due to the platform lengthening Arriva have requested - page 276: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/537465/northern-franchise-agreement.pdf

From that we can conclude:

Penistone Line - 150s including the 3 car sets
Leeds-Knottingley-Goole - 150s including the 3 car sets
Manchester-Buxton - 156s or 158s including pairs of 2 car sets
Manchester-Northwich-Chester - 156s or 158s including pairs of 2 car sets
Manchester-Marple-Sheffield - 156s or 158s including pairs of 2 car sets
Liverpool-Warrington Central-Manchester stoppers - 150s including pairs of 2 car sets
Manchester-Clitheroe - 158s including the 3 car sets

For some routes which see multiple services it's not as clear.
 

tbtc

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So out of a total of 55 units let's assume around 7 will be in the shed for maintenance and so a total of 48 in service on a typical weekday.

Manchester Airport-Barrow: 4 units
Manchester Airport-Liverpool: 3 units
Manchester Airport-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Liverpool-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Chester-Leeds via Bradford: 5 units
Blackpool-York: 5 units
Nottingham-Bradford: 5 units
Lincoln-Leeds via Sheff: 4 units
Sheffield-Hull: 4 units

So that's around 40 units just to cover the basic diagrams they'll be working to, before any strengthening takes place. There won't be that many units available for doubling up really. I thought it looked a bit stretched.

I agree that forty DMUs doesn't look over-generous - made worse by stretching the fleet thinly from Hull/ Lincoln to Chester/ Barrow - since every large town apparently deserves new DMUs - so that there won't be the same contingency in the event of failures that you would have if 195s were restricted to just one side of the Pennines.

However, re the above list, I'd add that the Hull - Sheffield service will run through to Chesterfield off-peak (which may add a unit?) and mention that the Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Bradford *could* be the same service as a Leeds - Bradford - Calder Valley train (Manchester Airport? Liverpool? Chester?), which may remove a unit from the PVR (but make for an unreliable service).

The four coach bi-mode FLIRTS in East Anglia are looking more promising than these two coach 195s.
 

aformeruser

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I agree that forty DMUs doesn't look over-generous - made worse by stretching the fleet thinly from Hull/ Lincoln to Chester/ Barrow - since every large town apparently deserves new DMUs - so that there won't be the same contingency in the event of failures that you would have if 195s were restricted to just one side of the Pennines.

People in the North East are complaining about getting refurbished 158s because other areas are getting 195s. If Arriva had proposed basing the 195s over a smaller area there would have been even more complaints.
 

Bletchleyite

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People in the North East are complaining about getting refurbished 158s because other areas are getting 195s. If Arriva had proposed basing the 195s over a smaller area there would have been even more complaints.

They should borrow a 158 off ATW or ScotRail (Inverness) and go and show them exactly how nice a 158 refurb can be if done well.
 

sprinterguy

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So that's around 40 units just to cover the basic diagrams they'll be working to, before any strengthening takes place. There won't be that many units available for doubling up really. I thought it looked a bit stretched.
Hmm, the situation doesn't look great, does it? I would have hoped that there would have been at least enough slack in the fleet to allow most of the 2-car units to work as pairs throughout the day, and for some of the 3-car services to be augmented at peak times, as is much the case on Birmingham's Snow Hill lines.

It makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more pragmatic to utilise 158s refurbished to "Northern Connect" standards (as they all will be, I believe) on some "Connect" routes outside of the North East area. Unless this is already the intention behind refurbishing them to "Connect" standard (has anything stated that any of the "Connect" routes will be served solely by new trains?), as following the introduction of the 195s it seems to me that Northern will be flush with class 158 units with otherwise limited routes suited to their use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They should borrow a 158 off ATW or ScotRail (Inverness) and go and show them exactly how nice a 158 refurb can be if done well.
Indeed, and as the 158s are being refurbished to full "Northern Connect" standard they should be as good as new anyway, and are better suited, in my opinion, to regional services than stock with doors at one third positions (although I appreciate that there is also a heavy commuter demand to consider on many Northern routes where this configuration will prove beneficial).
 
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aformeruser

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It makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more pragmatic to utilise 158s refurbished to "Northern Connect" standards (as they all will be, I believe) on some "Connect" routes outside of the North East area. Unless this is already the intention behind refurbishing them to "Connect" standard (has anything stated that any of the "Connect" routes will be served solely by new trains?), as following the introduction of the 195s it seems to me that Northern will be flush with class 158 units with otherwise limited routes suited to their use.

The franchise spec does say all 158s will be refurbished to the Northern Connect standard. It sounds like they'll be used alongside 195s on these routes:

Hull to Sheffield

this route will become part of the Northern Connect network, with at least 13 trains per day each way operated by brand new diesel trains (out of a total of 17).

Leeds to Nottingham

this route will become part of the Northern Connect network, with at least 10 trains per day each way operated by brand-new diesel trains

Lincoln to Sheffield

Lincoln-Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, operated by new trains, with a minimum of 10 trains per day in each direction running through to Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds


http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html
 
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