Class 195 allocations and formations

[158756]

If, as Philip suggested, 48 units (lets say 22x2 and 26x3 car) were used on 40 diagrams, then the minimum number of 2 car diagrams would be 6. (26x3 car, 8x4car, 6x2).

That's few enough that they could be kept away from the cities at peak times, maybe with some shuffling during the day if diagrams are busy in the morning but not evening and vice versa.( Which would potentially mean most 2 coach trains going around alone off peak)

However, that assumes no Northern Connect service would be longer than 4 cars. That might be an issue on some routes, especially if passenger growth continues throughout the franchise. If longer trains are needed anywhere that means more 2 coach trains somewhere else.

Has anyone worked this out for the rest of Northern's fleet? Is it any better or is 2 cars going to be the standard train length save a few peak services?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Manchester Airport to Barrow will be served for the most part by the Scotland service, if 195/0s are to run in single formation at all then I'd think Barrow and Lincoln will be the first choices to allocate them on.

The problem with the Barrow services will be that, despite the more spacious alternative trains, they will fill with passengers for Preston (and Wigan if they stop there).

 

[edwin_m]

I think most of these units will spend most of the time running around not coupled to another unit. If they had wanted (or could afford) all-day 4-car workings they would have ordered 4-car units, which are cheaper and have more passenger space than a pair of 2-cars and the revenue staff can get through the train.

The idea of Northern Connect is to have a network of reasonable and predictable quality trains, which in conjunction with the Intercity TOCS and TPE will link all the major cities of the North. Concentrating them in one area would have involved buying low- and high-density sub-fleets, refurbishing 158s or some other unit to an equivalent standard and keeping those ageing units at the right quality level. Most importantly it would not give the political and image advantages of a region-wide network.

 

[darloscott]

Can't help but wonder some of your diagram predictions are slightly underestimated. For example there are 7 diagrams on Blackpool-York

 

[Rail Bus]

Dosen't it make sense for Northern to keep the excess 185's as well to supplement the 195's on connect services? Particularly the Calder Valley?

 

[lejog]

However, that assumes no Northern Connect service would be longer than 4 cars. That might be an issue on some routes, especially if passenger growth continues throughout the franchise. If longer trains are needed anywhere that means more 2 coach trains somewhere else.

The Franchise Agreement specifies train lengthening/platform extensions to 6*23m for both the Manchester Victoria-Bradford Interchange-Leeds line and the Leeds-York line (among other extensions for non-Connect lines).

Interesting since the 4 Northern Connect services on these routes are extended westwards and there is no mention of platform extensions to Blackpool, Liverpool, Chester or Manchester Airport (although some of these routes may already have long enough platforms I suppose).

 

[pemma]

The Franchise Agreement specifies train lengthening/platform extensions to 6*23m for both the Manchester Victoria-Bradford Interchange-Leeds line and the Leeds-York line (among other extensions for non-Connect lines).

I wonder if York-Leeds is to allow 331s to be used in double formation in the future? After all the Northern franchise agreement lasts until 2025. Or perhaps it's just to allow an extra set to be attached and detached at Leeds during special events such as during York races?

Interesting since the 4 Northern Connect services on these routes are extended westwards and there is no mention of platform extensions to Blackpool, Liverpool, Chester or Manchester Airport (although some of these routes may already have long enough platforms I suppose).

Manchester Airport will be fine for 6 car presuming the Bradford service doesn't form the all-stops between Piccadilly the Airport, which I think is unlikely. The Liverpool and Chester services will be miss out most stations west of Victoria - I think ignoring Chester and Lime Street there's only 3 stations in total where standard pattern services will call but I'm not sure on the platform lengths at those.

 

[158756]

Dosen't it make sense for Northern to keep the excess 185's as well to supplement the 195's on connect services? Particularly the Calder Valley?

The 185s being released from TPE have nothing to do with Northern, and IIRC weren't available to the new franchise according to the terms of the ITT. In hindsight 185s might have been useful, but 185s and 195s would have been very expensive, probably damaging to the chances of winning the franchise, had it indeed been an option.
It'd be very surprising now to see any more trains added to the franchise other than the 170s or equivalent specified for 2022.

 

[lejog]

I wonder if York-Leeds is to allow 331s to be used in double formation in the future? After all the Northern franchise agreement lasts until 2025. Or perhaps it's just to allow an extra set to be attached and detached at Leeds during special events such as during York races?

The Franchise Agreement states that the train lengthening/platform extensions are needed to meet the capacity requirements into the major cities required by Dec 2019.

I doubt very much that money would be spent on lengthening platforms just to run longer trains for special events, especially as Leeds-Selby is also set to receive 6*23m trains.

Manchester Airport will be fine for 6 car presuming the Bradford service doesn't form the all-stops between Piccadilly the Airport, which I think is unlikely. The Liverpool and Chester services will be miss out most stations west of Victoria - I think ignoring Chester and Lime Street there's only 3 stations in total where standard pattern services will call but I'm not sure on the platform lengths at those.

True, but in the rush hours, when longer trains are likely to run, the Chester/Ellesmere Port services seem to stop at all stations to Newton-le-Willows.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It makes me wonder if it wouldn't be more pragmatic to utilise 158s refurbished to "Northern Connect" standards (as they all will be, I believe) on some "Connect" routes outside of the North East area. Unless this is already the intention behind refurbishing them to "Connect" standard (has anything stated that any of the "Connect" routes will be served solely by new trains?), as following the introduction of the 195s it seems to me that Northern will be flush with class 158 units with otherwise limited routes suited to their use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, and as the 158s are being refurbished to full "Northern Connect" standard they should be as good as new anyway, and are better suited, in my opinion, to regional services than stock with doors at one third positions (although I appreciate that there is also a heavy commuter demand to consider on many Northern routes where this configuration will prove beneficial).

I wouldn't read too much made into less than definitive announcements made at the time of the announcement of the franchise. There is nothing in the Franchise Agreement saying that Northern are contractually bound to run solely 195s on Northern Connect routes - they have to agree a Train Plan with the DfT which specifies the class of unit and length they will use on all services.

Given the figures in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised to see 158s on Northern Connect routes outside the North East in rush hours.

A silly question from a passenger, would it be possible to build 195s so they can be strengthened with 158s? Then there could be 195s on all services!

 

[Haydn1971]

The franchise agreement is rather interesting in that I note some 5x23m services to be implemented - that's presumably a peak time 3+2 car paired unit rather than a 5 car unit..

These include;
- Manchester-Southport
- Manchester-Kirkby
- Manchester-Clitheroe
All diesel, presumably non-connect 156/158s ?

- Manchester-Huddersfield (which would surely also require some 5x26m lengthening at some stations for TPE services)
Presumably connect 170/195s ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Kirkby one is likely purely for compatibility over function. It allows them to send a longer train if they have too not that they intend to in normal operation.

Southport as its running through to Leeds/Bradford I could see that being a five car regularly.

 

[Philip]

DMU diagrams for services via Bolton and Atherton may have a one-off 195 token working to keep up to date route clearance and knowledge.

 

[lejog]

Southport as its running through to Leeds/Bradford I could see that being a five car regularly.

Getting off-topic, but the Leeds-Southport service is another example of a puzzler in the platform lengthening project - west of Manchester is specified as 5*23m, east of Manchester 6*23m.

 

[pemma]

Getting off-topic, but the Leeds-Southport service is another example of a puzzler in the platform lengthening project - west of Manchester is specified as 5*23m, east of Manchester 6*23m.

Possibly 170s on Leeds to Southport with no doubling up west of Victoria and 5 car 158s on the other Southport services.

 

[Philip]

Possibly 170s on Leeds to Southport with no doubling up west of Victoria and 5 car 158s on the other Southport services.

Do we know if there will be other Southport services? You have to fit the Kirkby service in too and there will probably be at least one terminating at Wallgate. There's also the possibility of a Manchester-Wigan service reversing at NW and then carrying on to Liverpool via St Helens Central.

I wonder if there's any possibility of opening or reopening a chord at Burscough to connect the Southport line with the Ormskirk line? It would provide a useful service having direct services between Ormskirk and Manchester, plus it'd be another route between Manchester and Liverpool...and something to do with all these extra Atherton line trains.

 

[pemma]

I'm pretty sure Northern have to provide 2tph from Southport to Manchester with talks over whether direct services to Oxford Rd and Piccadilly, at least at peak times, taking place. Northern do have to double the level of service on Atherton Line.

 

[WatcherZero]

Will be two services for Southport. Currently looks like Leeds and a Victoria terminator (though in practise Victoria could be Rochdale) but local politicians and MP's campaigning heavily about loss of Airport and Picadilly.

Kirkby despite the threat of being just a wigan shuttle looks like running through to Victoria as well.

Burscough chords lot of political support but a rather marginal to poor business case which would put it at the bottom of any funding pecking order.

 

[Philip]

I'd be surprised if there are any Victoria terminators from the west. With so many through long distance services planned for the through lines, I'm not sure they would cope in holding a terminating train.

All of the Rochdale locals (including the Blackburn service) will most likely come from the west, as will the Stalybridge locals. Four from the Atherton line, two from Wigan via Bolton and two from the Ribble Valley direction. So chances are that will mean four Rochdale line locals and four Stalybridge locals. Suspect the Blackpool-Victoria service will become part of the half hourly service between Bolton and Stockport. No room for any of the Atherton line services to go into Piccadilly, as things stand atm. Only way Southport may retain a direct Piccadilly and Airport link is if the Liverpool stopper via Chat Moss goes to Stalybridge instead of the Airport as planned. But that would compromise things for Liverpool passengers and would have to wait until electrification to Stalybridge is complete.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I wonder if there's any possibility of opening or reopening a chord at Burscough to connect the Southport line with the Ormskirk line? It would provide a useful service having direct services between Ormskirk and Manchester, plus it'd be another route between Manchester and Liverpool...and something to do with all these extra Atherton line trains.

The two chords that used to exist at Burscough were Ormskirk to Southport and Preston to Southport (though the latter never saw scheduled passenger service). Ormskirk to Manchester would be a brand new alignment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The two chords that used to exist at Burscough were Ormskirk to Southport and Preston to Southport (though the latter never saw scheduled passenger service). Ormskirk to Manchester would be a brand new alignment.

The most useful arrangement would be to rebuild Burscough Bridge station taking over some of the adjacent car park, and extending Merseyrail through to Burscough Bridge to terminate on the south side, and running the Preston-Ormskirk line to terminate on the north side which would allow a clockface hourly service with one unit (rather than the two which will be used to increase the service when it does change as is planned - I do wonder if that will mean a through service elsewhere as two dedicated units would spend a long time laying over). You would then have quality connections from West Lancashire to Southport and Manchester (though admittedly the latter are already available via Preston and the former via Sandhills or the not terrible bus service, journey times would be cut).

The direct Burscough Bridge-Rufford line would not be served.

 

[Kendalian]

Burscough Curves situation is so frustrating.

Reinstating the south curve (closed in 1981-2?) means a direct Southport-Ormskirk route. Also a Preston-Ormskirk-Southport direct service.

Reinstating the north curve (closed 1969?) means a much faster, direct Preston-Southport service. Given the volume of road traffic on that route every day, I'd be amazed if it were not a successful reopening.


EDIT - couple of posts whilst I was typing lol. Correct to say the north curve was never a scheduled route, even after the direct line through Crossens closed in 1964.

 

[Bevan Price]

From that we can conclude:

Penistone Line - 150s including the 3 car sets
Leeds-Knottingley-Goole - 150s including the 3 car sets
Manchester-Buxton - 156s or 158s including pairs of 2 car sets
Manchester-Northwich-Chester - 156s or 158s including pairs of 2 car sets
Manchester-Marple-Sheffield - 156s or 158s including pairs of 2 car sets
Liverpool-Warrington Central-Manchester stoppers - 150s including pairs of 2 car sets
Manchester-Clitheroe - 158s including the 3 car sets

For some routes which see multiple services it's not as clear.

Class 158 is not currently allowed to Buxton. What (if any) engineering work will be necessary to change this ?

Personally, I am not happy about the concept of Bradford - Liverpool services, using dmus on a newly electrified line between Manchester & Liverpool, (and quite possibly replacing some 4 car 319 diagrams by a 2 or 3 car 159 on the Liverpool / Manchester section. )

 

[Kendalian]

Slightly off track, but do we know what the power output will be for the 195's?

Nothing on Wikipedia for this yet. 170's are 422hp, 175's are 450hp, 185's are 750 hp. (per coach that is )

Usually the power rating increases as the class numbers get higher, but I'd be surprised if the 195's were higher than 750hp!

 

[WatcherZero]

No, CAF don't do promotional brochures for their rolling stock unlike the other manufacturers so we will likely only hear when staff get the details.

 

[Philip]

Have a feeling they might be similar to 172s in power terns...and with a similar gearbox too.

 

[lejog]

I'd be surprised if there are any Victoria terminators from the west. With so many through long distance services planned for the through lines, I'm not sure they would cope in holding a terminating train.

All of the Rochdale locals (including the Blackburn service) will most likely come from the west, as will the Stalybridge locals. Four from the Atherton line, two from Wigan via Bolton and two from the Ribble Valley direction. So chances are that will mean four Rochdale line locals and four Stalybridge locals. Suspect the Blackpool-Victoria service will become part of the half hourly service between Bolton and Stockport. No room for any of the Atherton line services to go into Piccadilly, as things stand atm. Only way Southport may retain a direct Piccadilly and Airport link is if the Liverpool stopper via Chat Moss goes to Stalybridge instead of the Airport as planned. But that would compromise things for Liverpool passengers and would have to wait until electrification to Stalybridge is complete.

It seems likely that there will be terminators from the west at Victoria. Only one Rochdale terminator per hour and two Stalybridge are planned. Along with 4 TPE services via Stalybridge and 5 Calder Valley services through Rochdale (assuming the Blackburn/Burnley service continues to run through), this means 12 through services.

From the west this will comprise of all 4 services over Ordsall Chord (assuming the Burnley service is routed to the Airport as Northern want), all 4 services from Chat Moss, leaving room for only 4 through tph from Salford Crescent.

I'm unsure about the exact numbers from Salford Crescent (4tph from Atherton, 4 or 5tph from Bolton?), but its more than 4. So there will be say 4-6tph terminating.

This is pure guesswork on my part, but it has been stated that the theoretical capacity at Victoria after the changes will be 24tph in each direction i.e. a train every 5mins from each non-bay platform. It could that the plan is to use one pair of platforms for the 12 through trains and one pair for the terminators. The non-through platforms could also be used for splitting of trains (as seems likely from this thread to be necessary).

 

[edwin_m]

This is pure guesswork on my part, but it has been stated that the theoretical capacity at Victoria after the changes will be 24tph in each direction i.e. a train every 5mins from each non-bay platform. It could that the plan is to use one pair of platforms for the 12 through trains and one pair for the terminators. The non-through platforms could also be used for splitting of trains (as seems likely from this thread to be necessary).

I think it's far more likely that they will mix through and terminating trains in each through platform to minimise the number of crossing moves. Most Chat Moss through trains run via Stalybridge and most Salford Crescent through trains run via Rochdale, so none of these would conflict with each other in Victoria. Calder Valley trains going round the Ordsall Curve or any terminating in the Victoria bay platforms will however have to cross the southern pair of through tracks.

 

[lejog]

Most Chat Moss through trains run via Stalybridge and most Salford Crescent through trains run via Rochdale

I'm not sure thats true, certainly if Northern are allowed to run an Airport-Burnley/Blackburn service. In either case there will be 2 Stalybridge services from Chat Moss (Liverpool TPE services) and 2 Rochdale (Liverpool and Chester Northern Connect). If the Airport-Burnley service runs, 2 of the 4 trains over Ordsall Chord will be for Stalybridge (TPE Airport services) and 2 for Rochdale (Bradford and Burnley). Leaving with perfect symmetry 2 of each from Salford Crescent (2 Stalybridge terminators, 1 Rochdale terminator and the Southport-Leeds service).

However you may well be right on the platform arrangements, I only worked the above out when I had a short wait for a train at Victoria recently, the train wasn't late enough for me to start thinking about crossing paths. I only got as far as that the 12 actual through trains happened to be half the theoretical capacity of 24.

 

[pemma]

Class 158 is not currently allowed to Buxton. What (if any) engineering work will be necessary to change this ?

Wasn't it an issue with the exhaust pipe and a bridge?

Personally, I am not happy about the concept of Bradford - Liverpool services, using dmus on a newly electrified line between Manchester & Liverpool, (and quite possibly replacing some 4 car 319 diagrams by a 2 or 3 car 159 on the Liverpool / Manchester section. )

It's an additional service between Liverpool and Manchester in addition the minimum service level required in specification set by DfT/Rail North. The current Chat Moss semi-fast service is being replaced by the additional TPE service on Chat Moss, with the TPE service on the CLC line being replaced by the new Northern Connect service.

 

[158756]

What's the point of extending a Calder Valley train to Liverpool? Links from Rochdale/Todmorden/Hebden Bridge to Liverpool? It's a very long journey to Bradford.

Where will it call between Liverpool and Manchester (I seem to remember Huyton, in which case it would probably be the fastest train calling there?).

I wouldn't be surprised if it's main use was people turning up at Lime St/Victoria and piling on the next 2 car train to Manchester/Liverpool rather than waiting for the TPE services.

 

[lejog]

What's the point of extending a Calder Valley train to Liverpool? Links from Rochdale/Todmorden/Hebden Bridge to Liverpool? It's a very long journey to Bradford.

Where will it call between Liverpool and Manchester (I seem to remember Huyton, in which case it would probably be the fastest train calling there?).

I wouldn't be surprised if it's main use was people turning up at Lime St/Victoria and piling on the next 2 car train to Manchester/Liverpool rather than waiting for the TPE services.

A Bradford to Liverpool service was one of the suggested routes in the Northern Hub for improving links between major Northern cities and thus improving the economy of the North. It thus helped gain £600m of public investment in the railway which is expected to contribute £bns to the Northern economy.

From an inward-looking railway industry point of view its running a diesel under the wires, a revenue raid etc.

There has been a real push to improve Bradford's rail services - improved VTEC services to London, and Northern Connect services to Sheffield, Nottingham, Liverpool, Chester and Manchester Airport. You seem just to be considering the Liverpool end so presumably would be happy to leave Bradford with two suburban lines?

Edit. BTW it is likely to be a 3/6 car DMU. It will quite possibly be the fastest Liverpool-Manchester train and it may possibly also run fast through Rochdale and Todmorden. In which case it could make full use of the new 90mph predominant line speed from Victoria to Sowerby Bridge - another Northern Hub output.