Class 195 allocations and formations

[pemma]

Where will it call between Liverpool and Manchester (I seem to remember Huyton, in which case it would probably be the fastest train calling there?).

Possibly only Huyton.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's main use was people turning up at Lime St/Victoria and piling on the next 2 car train to Manchester/Liverpool rather than waiting for the TPE services.

Depends on timings and paths. If the Northern Connect departs Lime Street 5 minutes after the TPE Edinburgh via York service then it won't have many Manchester passengers unless Arriva introduce some cheap Northern only tickets.

 

[Bevan Price]

Wasn't it an issue with the exhaust pipe and a bridge?



It's an additional service between Liverpool and Manchester in addition the minimum service level required in specification set by DfT/Rail North. The current Chat Moss semi-fast service is being replaced by the additional TPE service on Chat Moss, with the TPE service on the CLC line being replaced by the new Northern Connect service.

I may be mistaken, but I thought that the all stations Liverpool to Manchester Airport was to take over the "all stations" function from the current Lime St. - Manchester Victoria service, since there will still be only 2 stopping trains per hour between Liverpool & Earlestown.

The Liverpool - Bradford service was then likely to take over as the "fast" northern service between Liverpool & Manchester, calling at Wavertree Tech Park, St. Helens Junction & Newton le Willows. Also I thought that the additional Northern Chester - Manchester / Bradford service was to be limted stop, maybe calling only at Warrington (possibly Newton ? ) then Manchester.

In addition, one of the (two per hour) TPE Liverpool services would probably call at St. Helens Junction and/or Newton Le Willows. The other TPE service (Newcastle/Edinburgh ??) might remain non--stop between Liverpool & Manchester Victoria.

I guess we will have to wait and see what actually happens. But whatever happens, I feel it would have been better to maximise use of the electrified system. Perhaps we nave to hope that the Calder Valley & Warrington / Crewe to Chester are added to the next phase of electrification.

 

[pemma]

I may be mistaken, but I thought that the all stations Liverpool to Manchester Airport was to take over the "all stations" function from the current Lime St. - Manchester Victoria service, since there will still be only 2 stopping trains per hour between Liverpool & Earlestown.

The Liverpool - Bradford service was then likely to take over as the "fast" northern service between Liverpool & Manchester, calling at Wavertree Tech Park, St. Helens Junction & Newton le Willows. Also I thought that the additional Northern Chester - Manchester / Bradford service was to be limted stop, maybe calling only at Warrington (possibly Newton ? ) then Manchester.

Like I said the ITT didn't require Northern to provide a semi-fast service on Chat Moss. DfT envisaged 2 x TPE and 1 x Northern with Northern running the all-stops and TPE running an express and a semi-fast or in other words the same level of service as now but TPE taking over the semi-fast path. So the extra service which Arriva chose to include in addition the minimum service level only has to call at stations of Arriva's choice. Arriva might not have much choice given it won't be easy to squeeze in a path for an additional service if it makes too many calls.

 

[158756]

There has been a real push to improve Bradford's rail services - improved VTEC services to London, and Northern Connect services to Sheffield, Nottingham, Liverpool, Chester and Manchester Airport. You seem just to be considering the Liverpool end so presumably would be happy to leave Bradford with two suburban lines?

Edit. BTW it is likely to be a 3/6 car DMU. It will quite possibly be the fastest Liverpool-Manchester train and it may possibly also run fast through Rochdale and Todmorden. In which case it could make full use of the new 90mph predominant line speed from Victoria to Sowerby Bridge - another Northern Hub output.

There will be 3 Calder Valley Northern Connect services, but only one, if any, can skip Todmorden, and one will probably call at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge. It'll be 90-100 minutes to Liverpool, which seems a very long journey to create a large passenger flow.

It may well be 3 car, but 6 is really stretching the 195s. I can certainly see why you'd link two places the size of Bradford and Liverpool, but the Calder Valley will never be a fast route and I'm not sure fast Liverpool-Manchester trains are a market to go into with a limited fleet.

Having contributed to this thread I am wondering what Northern will do if the 195s are overcrowded.

 

[Greybeard33]

Like I said the ITT didn't require Northern to provide a semi-fast service on Chat Moss. DfT envisaged 2 x TPE and 1 x Northern with Northern running the all-stops and TPE running an express and a semi-fast or in other words the same level of service as now but TPE taking over the semi-fast path. So the extra service which Arriva chose to include in addition the minimum service level only has to call at stations of Arriva's choice. Arriva might not have much choice given it won't be easy to squeeze in a path for an additional service if it makes too many calls.

The TSRs attached to the Northern franchise agreement do not specify the end-to-end frequency between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester via Chat Moss. They only specify the frequencies between Lime Street and stations to Newton-le-Willows (NLW); and between Manchester and stations to Earlestown (including the Chester service).

Excluding the TPE services, NLW gets only 1tph to/from Lime Street, presumably the Airport stopper. Whiston to Earlestown get 2tph to/from Lime Street, namely the Airport and Warrington Bank Quay stoppers. Wavertree Technology Park to Roby get 4tph, with the addition of the 2tph Wigan stoppers. But Huyton gets 6tph to/from Lime Street. The 5th train will be the 1tph Preston/Blackpool North service, which means that 6th must be Bradford Connect. So this appears to confirm that the Bradford service will call only at Huyton between Lime Street and Victoria, as you suggested in your earlier post.

 

[Bevan Price]

The TSRs attached to the Northern franchise agreement do not specify the end-to-end frequency between Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester via Chat Moss. They only specify the frequencies between Lime Street and stations to Newton-le-Willows (NLW); and between Manchester and stations to Earlestown (including the Chester service).

Excluding the TPE services, NLW gets only 1tph to/from Lime Street, presumably the Airport stopper. Whiston to Earlestown get 2tph to/from Lime Street, namely the Airport and Warrington Bank Quay stoppers. Wavertree Technology Park to Roby get 4tph, with the addition of the 2tph Wigan stoppers. But Huyton gets 6tph to/from Lime Street. The 5th train will be the 1tph Preston/Blackpool North service, which means that 6th must be Bradford Connect. So this appears to confirm that the Bradford service will call only at Huyton between Lime Street and Victoria, as you suggested in your earlier post.

In the document I downloaded, Huyton is shown with only 5 trains per hour to/from Liverpool.

Also TPE is required to provide both St. Helens Jn & Newton Le Willows with one service per hour, but does not specify how this is to be achieved (e.g. same train calls at both of these,plus one non-stop Lime St. to Man Vic. -- or alternate trains each hour call at just one of these.

 

[pemma]

In the document I downloaded, Huyton is shown with only 5 trains per hour to/from Liverpool.

Also TPE is required to provide both St. Helens Jn & Newton Le Willows with one service per hour, but does not specify how this is to be achieved (e.g. same train calls at both of these,plus one non-stop Lime St. to Man Vic. -- or alternate trains each hour call at just one of these.

TPE have to provide 1tph which gets between Liverpool and Manchester in no more than 32? minutes meaning one service will be non-stop.

 

[Greybeard33]

In the document I downloaded, Huyton is shown with only 5 trains per hour to/from Liverpool.

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/501849/arn-tsr-schedule-5-tsr3-weekdays.pdf (TSR3 SX), Tables LIV1A and LIV1B. You were probably looking at TSR2 (from Dec 2017). The 6th Huyton service is not required until Dec 2019.

 

[Bevan Price]

See https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/501849/arn-tsr-schedule-5-tsr3-weekdays.pdf (TSR3 SX), Tables LIV1A and LIV1B. You were probably looking at TSR2 (from Dec 2017). The 6th Huyton service is not required until Dec 2019.

Thanks. But seems strange that it would call at Huyton, but not St. Helens Jn., Earlestown or Newton Le Willows.
Pity that the document does not seem to specify the minimum service between Manchester and stations west of Earlestown. At first glance, it looks as if St. Helens Junction will suffer a big reduction in seating capacity to/from Manchester, with a (probably overcrowded) single Class 185 instead of a 4 coach 319.

 

[Greybeard33]

Thanks. But seems strange that it would call at Huyton, but not St. Helens Jn., Earlestown or Newton Le Willows.
Pity that the document does not seem to specify the minimum service between Manchester and stations west of Earlestown. At first glance, it looks as if St. Helens Junction will suffer a big reduction in seating capacity to/from Manchester, with a (probably overcrowded) single Class 185 instead of a 4 coach 319.

The Northern Connect Chester service will stop at Earlestown and Newton-le-Willows. TPE's Edinburgh service (which will eventually become a 5-car AT300) will stop at St Helens Junction, while more likely the Scarborough LHCS service will stop at Newton-le-Willows. So SHJ to Manchester commuters will not have to share their train with those from Wavertree Technology Park and NLW, as they do the 319 currently.

So it makes some sense that the Liverpool to Bradford Northern Connect (only an overcrowded 2- or 3-car 195?) should stop just at Huyton, which would otherwise not have a fast service to Manchester.

 

[158756]

There's been some talk on the Windermere line thread that electrification may happen late or not at all. What would be the impact on the rest of the Northern Connect services if the 195s have to cover Windermere as well?

 

[Greybeard33]

There's been some talk on the Windermere line thread that electrification may happen late or not at all. What would be the impact on the rest of the Northern Connect services if the 195s have to cover Windermere as well?

The franchise agreement requirement is for four through services daily from Windermere to Manchester Airport via Wigan North Western (three on Sundays). The rest of the hourly Windermere services can remain as a shuttle to Oxenholme, which does not count as Northern Connect.

There is also a requirement for eight services daily from Barrow to the Airport, which presumably would use the same WCML path as the Windermere services, but in different hours. Possibly scope for 195s interworking between Barrow and Windermere services?

 

[edwin_m]

The franchise agreement requirement is for four through services daily from Windermere to Manchester Airport via Wigan North Western (three on Sundays). The rest of the hourly Windermere services can remain as a shuttle to Oxenholme, which does not count as Northern Connect.

There is also a requirement for eight services daily from Barrow to the Airport, which presumably would use the same WCML path as the Windermere services, but in different hours. Possibly scope for 195s interworking between Barrow and Windermere services?

Presumably the Windermere service will be an electric unit, otherwise there would be no point in electrifying it. So more likely to interwork with the Blackpools.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the Windermere service will be an electric unit, otherwise there would be no point in electrifying it. So more likely to interwork with the Blackpools.

Not if the electrification is delayed

I must admit I think through services would be best done as portion worked, joining/splitting at Lancaster, with the Barrows - shame Northern didn't go for a uniform fleet of bi-modes.

 

[lejog]

There will be 3 Calder Valley Northern Connect services, but only one, if any, can skip Todmorden, and one will probably call at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge. It'll be 90-100 minutes to Liverpool, which seems a very long journey to create a large passenger flow.

It may well be 3 car, but 6 is really stretching the 195s. I can certainly see why you'd link two places the size of Bradford and Liverpool, but the Calder Valley will never be a fast route and I'm not sure fast Liverpool-Manchester trains are a market to go into with a limited fleet.

But as discussed earlier, Northern have contractual obligations to provide platform extensions and run 6*23m trains on the Calder Valley route from 2019 to contribute to the rush hour capacity requirements into Manchester and Leeds - these stations require 2,500-2,800 extra peak hour seats between 2017 and 2019. While there is no obligation to run these trains through to Liverpool (or provide platform extensions on Chat Moss), there are a number of pointers that they will.

Since they stop only at Huyton (all platforms of length 145m), they could do so without any need for platform extensions or the use of SDO. The other main stations on the route have shorter platforms - Newton-le-Willows (106m/108m) Earlestown (160m/115m) and St Helen's Junction (118m/120m). As has been reported recently in the Ordsall Chord thread, GMPTE are going to have to find an extra £20m to build 6 car platforms rather than 4 car on the proposed Chat Moss platforms at Salford Central.

While Northern's obligations for extra peak hour seats into Liverpool are a more modest 450 between 2017 and 2019, there are no planned platform extensions for other services into Liverpool (and certainly no doubling up of 319s!) or AFAIK any other extra services planned for 2019.

I agree with you that it is difficult to see how Class 195s can cover all the Northern Connect services with 6 car services on the Calder Valley (including Leeds-York) routes. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the Franchise Agreement that obliges Northern to use 195s on Northern Connect services, just that trains have to meet certain standards (which refurbished 158s also meet) and that Northern have to submit a Train Plan to the DfT specifying what rolling stock is going to be used for which services. So I would not be surprised to see some use of 158s for rush hour Northern Connect services in addition to those announced for the North East.

But then again, I am looking at this from a Commercial Management point of view, what matters is what is said in the contract, not the irrelevant fluff like announcements/route maps put out by PR/Marketing folks.

 

[pemma]

it is difficult to see how Class 195s can cover all the Northern Connect services with 6 car services on the Calder Valley (including Leeds-York) routes. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the Franchise Agreement that obliges Northern to use 195s on Northern Connect services, just that trains have to meet certain standards (which refurbished 158s also meet) and that Northern have to submit a Train Plan to the DfT specifying what rolling stock is going to be used for which services.

As I've mentioned previously:

Leeds - Nottingham will become part of the Northern Connect network, with at least 10 trains per day each way operated by brand-new diesel trains

Lincoln-Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, operated by new trains, with a minimum of 10 trains per day in each direction running through to Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds

A minimum of 8 trains per day in each direction between Barrow-in-Furness and Manchester Airport (double the frequency today). These will be Northern Connect services, operated by new diesel trains

Hull to Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, with at least 13 trains per day each way operated by brand new diesel trains (out of a total of 17).

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

So those 4 Northern Connect routes won't necessarily see 195s every hour all day.

Bradford to Liverpool and Manchester Airport services appear to be getting new trains for all services, as does York to Blackpool. While Leeds to Chester appears to be getting new trains for all services, that doesn't automatically include the peak time services which will run to Ellesmere Port instead of Chester. It sounds like the majority of 195s will be used on services passing through Bradford.

 

[lejog]

As I've mentioned previously:

"Leeds - Nottingham will become part of the Northern Connect network, with at least 10 trains per day each way operated by brand-new diesel trains

Lincoln-Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, operated by new trains, with a minimum of 10 trains per day in each direction running through to Meadowhall, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds

A minimum of 8 trains per day in each direction between Barrow-in-Furness and Manchester Airport (double the frequency today). These will be Northern Connect services, operated by new diesel trains

Hull to Sheffield will become part of the Northern Connect network, with at least 13 trains per day each way operated by brand new diesel trains (out of a total of 17).

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html"

So those 4 Northern Connect routes won't necessarily see 195s every hour all day.

You've just provided an excellent example of why it is dangerous to quote PR fluff like the interactive maps produced at the announcement of the franchise award as a definitive source of information, when there is a contract in place. The Franchise Agreement says there will be 15 Northern Connect services a day between Lancaster and Manchester Airport (out of a total of 15 in the TSRs) of which a minimum of 8 happen to be extended to Barrow and 4 to Windermere. So all Lancaster services will be Northern Connect and there will be an hourly Northern Connect service to Lancaster (although the 3 Lancaster terminators could I suppose be EMUs).

But yes there will be 5 Leeds-Nottingham services (including 3 to Bradford), 2 Leeds-Lincoln services and 4 Sheffield to Hull services, which need not be Northern Connect. It is also possible that there may be spare 195s freed up from the Calder Valley after 9am at Leeds to run services to Lincoln and Nottingham for the rest of the day (the evening capacity requirements at Leeds being less onerous).

Bradford to Liverpool and Manchester Airport services appear to be getting new trains for all services, as does York to Blackpool. While Leeds to Chester appears to be getting new trains for all services, that doesn't automatically include the peak time services which will run to Ellesmere Port instead of Chester. It sounds like the majority of 195s will be used on services passing through Bradford.

Pendant mode on - again the contract says otherwise - 14 out of 15 Cheshire-Leeds services are Northern Connect and since there 13 from Chester and 2 from Ellesmere Port, at least one of the Ellesmere Port services must be Northern Connect.

 

[YorkshireBear]

So what we could see is the new units operating day time services aimed at leisure and business travel. With the commuter trains on these routes not guaranteed new trains so that capacity can be maximised?

 

[pemma]

The Franchise Agreement says there will be 15 Northern Connect services a day between Lancaster and Manchester Airport (out of a total of 15 in the TSRs) of which a minimum of 8 happen to be extended to Barrow and 4 to Windermere.

You've missed the point. They are only promising new DMUs on 8 services from Barrow, so if there's 15 services from Lancaster per day then only around half of them will be 195s. For Windermere it's been mentioned they'll be new electric trains i.e. 331s and if Network Rail don't get the wires up in time then Northern can't be penalised for not meeting their franchise requirement.

Pendant mode on - again the contract says otherwise - 14 out of 15 Cheshire-Leeds services are Northern Connect and since there 13 from Chester and 2 from Ellesmere Port, at least one of the Ellesmere Port services must be Northern Connect.

I think you've forgotten what the Northern Connect requirements are. They extend to having refreshment facilities and staffing at stations which the train stops at. (Arriva opted for refreshment facilities at stations over a trolley service on the train.) Therefore, will Stanlow or Ince get a hot drinks machine and station staff for their very limited service? If not it won't be advertised as a Northern Connect service throughout even if it's operated by 195s. The franchise agreement does specifically say Northern Connect standard trains can be used on non-Northern Connect services.

 

[lejog]

You've missed the point. They are only promising new DMUs on 8 services from Barrow, so if there's 15 services from Lancaster per day then only around half of them will be 195s. For Windermere it's been mentioned they'll be new electric trains i.e. 331s and if Network Rail don't get the wires up in time then Northern can't be penalised for not meeting their franchise requirement.

Statements made in the interactive maps are not part of the "franchise requirement" in any shape or form and Northern can not be penalised for not meeting anything said there. However they have signed a contract committing them to providing Northern Connect services to Windermere (4tpd) and Barrow (8tpd) (p55/56 of the Franchise Agreement) and for these services to meet Northern Connect "Rolling Stock Quality Requirements" by December 2018 (p116) and can be penalised for not doing this. They did this in full knowledge that the Hendy Plan had pushed Windermere electrification back to an unknown date during CP6 and that 331s could not be possibly used from December 2018 for the Windermere service.

I think you've forgotten what the Northern Connect requirements are. They extend to having refreshment facilities and staffing at stations which the train stops at. (Arriva opted for refreshment facilities at stations over a trolley service on the train.) Therefore, will Stanlow or Ince get a hot drinks machine and station staff for their very limited service? If not it won't be advertised as a Northern Connect service throughout even if it's operated by 195s. The franchise agreement does specifically say Northern Connect standard trains can be used on non-Northern Connect services.

The figures I quoted are those agreed by Arriva and the DfT - it would be them that had forgotten Northern Connect station requirements, not me. However, again whatever has been said elsewhere, provision of the "Northern Connect customer experience" is only mandatory at 36 stations specifically named in the Franchise Agreement (p269), although Northern are expected to provide "all reasonable endeavours" to ensure that facilities at other stations at which Northern Connect services stop are no worse (p270). Translating this legalese means that Northern are able to take commercial considerations including usage and cost into account before deciding what (if any) extra facilities to provide at stations not in the list. It would be difficult to argue in commercialterms that Stanlow and Ince should get extra facilities for a maximum possible 4 Northern Connect services a day.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What's the point of extending a Calder Valley train to Liverpool? Links from Rochdale/Todmorden/Hebden Bridge to Liverpool? It's a very long journey to Bradford.

Where will it call between Liverpool and Manchester (I seem to remember Huyton, in which case it would probably be the fastest train calling there?).

You can guarrentee that a member of staff at KCC will be using it since they have to commute from the Calder Valley to Knowsley four times a week as its their job.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I did read somewhere that some of the 158's were to be reformed into three car hybrid units (as per the GWR version that are used on the Cardiff - Southampton / Brighton service) just to increase capacity. I do think that the same was said for the 150's which may also be reformed into three car hybrid units (four cars would be better as the 150/2 units could be recoupled with the cabs facing each other).

 

[pemma]

No mention of additional 3 car 158s in the franchise agreement. Although there are already some 3 car 158s at Northern with proper centre cars.

3 car 150s are happening and will be used on lines including Penistone and Knottingley

 

[Greybeard33]

Statements made in the interactive maps are not part of the "franchise requirement" in any shape or form and Northern can not be penalised for not meeting anything said there. However they have signed a contract committing them to providing Northern Connect services to Windermere (4tpd) and Barrow (8tpd) (p55/56 of the Franchise Agreement) and for these services to meet Northern Connect "Rolling Stock Quality Requirements" by December 2018 (p116) and can be penalised for not doing this. They did this in full knowledge that the Hendy Plan had pushed Windermere electrification back to an unknown date during CP6 and that 331s could not be possibly used from December 2018 for the Windermere service.

The Franchise Agreement commitment for Windermere services to meet Northern Connect Rolling Stock Quality Requirements from Dec 2018 is subject to the proviso:

So far as it is possible to do so given the size and composition of the Train Fleet and without
contravening the requirements of paragraph 7 of Schedule 1.1 (Service Development)....

This means that non-Connect rolling stock may be used if necessary to meet the capacity requirements.

Schedule 9 of the Agreement details the Change process that can amend any of the requirements. Schedule 9.4 covers "Specified Infrastructure Related Change". Para. 3.1(b) of this (p448) states that it is a Change if the "Oxenholme to Windermere Funded Authorisations" (i.e. electrification) are not available on the specified date and this materially adversely affects the Passenger Services.

The "specified date" is not specified in the Franchise Agreement itself - it refers out to the Infrastructure Assumptions Document (IAD), which I do not think is in the public domain. However, the "Base" version of the IAD was referenced in the ITT and so predated the outcome of the Hendy Review. Presumably, therefore, it specified the original Windermere electrification date of 2017. The Rolling Stock Plan in Arriva's bid would have been based on this date and so likely assumed that 331s would be used for the Windermere to Airport (and Lancaster to Airport) Connect services, with 195s only needed for Barrow to Airport. AFAIK DfT has not negotiated an increase in the number of 195 vehicles from that offered in the bid, so there may not be enough to use them on Windermere services.

Arriva is currently in contravention of the TSR1 requirement to provide one daily direct service from Manchester Airport to Windermere until Dec 2017. Presumably DfT has agreed to waive this Franchise Agreement contractual requirement, as part of the "industry solution" to the departure of the TPE 170s. Similarly, DfT may well have agreed to defer the Connect Rolling Stock Quality Requirements until the Windermere branch is electrified, without amending the wording of the published Franchise Agreement document.