Class 222 with East Midlands Trains

[Big Chris]

I have been wondering about the formations of these trains with EMT. They currently have six seven-car trains, four four-car trains and seventeen five-car trains. Wouldn't it be easier to diagram if they took two cars out of two of the seven car trains and distributed them between the four car sets to create a more uniform fleet with only seven and five car trains? I would have thought digramming three out of four seven car trains wouldn't be unreasonable and then completing the rest of the services from the five car 222's and HST fleet (as a side note are the seven car 222's and HST's used interchangeably on services?).

 

[asylumxl]

I think the configuration that was decided is optimum. You also have to remember that not every station they may serve can take such a length. Chances are these lengths give the best available lengths for the infrastructure.

OK, I know Melton Mowbray is only served once a day in each direction, but it can only fit 4 car formations into it's platform.

 

[TomJ93]

Reform all into six cars add a project Thor carriage and SDO. Perfect

 

[MCR247]

Reform all into six cars add a project Thor carriage and SDO. Perfect

They have SDO atm

But no that wouldn't be perfect. Then you'd have busy Sheffield services and even emptier (although I didn't think that was possible) Corby services.

 

[asylumxl]

They have SDO atm

But no that wouldn't be perfect. Then you'd have busy Sheffield services and even emptier (although I didn't think that was possible) Corby services.

Empty?! Maybe from Corby. Certainly not from Kettering and Wellingborough and rammed by Bedford and Luton heading south.

 

[222007]

OK, I know Melton Mowbray is only served once a day in each direction, but it can only fit 4 car formations into it's platform.

It's only 3cars that fit

 

[asylumxl]

It's only 3cars that fit

I swear physically just a little hangs off. Only ever used it once mind.

 

[MCR247]

Empty?! Maybe from Corby. Certainly not from Kettering and Wellingborough and rammed by Bedford and Luton heading south.

The Corby - Kettering part is empty and the path could be utilised so much better as a Derby stopper. Oh well.

 

[TheBigD]

Reform all into six cars add a project Thor carriage and SDO. Perfect

St Pancras can only take 11 car trains so you wouldn't be able to double any service up. Those currently 2 x 5 car would be reduced to 6...

The 222's were originally 7 x 9 car & 16 x 4 car plus 4 x 4 car for Hull Trains.

MML reformed them theirs to 7 x 8 car, 7 x 5 car & 9 x 4 car.

When Stagecoach took over EMT they reformed them again to 6 x 7 car & 17 x 5 car. The 4 Hull Trains units transferred across later.

 

[tbtc]

even emptier (although I didn't think that was possible) Corby services.

Empty?! Maybe from Corby. Certainly not from Kettering and Wellingborough and rammed by Bedford and Luton heading south

Bedford and Luton have their own frequent Thameslink services into London (which will have a capacity increase). The 222s should be used on longer distance journeys.

Using the Bedford/Luton passengers as an ORCATS raid may be the only way for EMT to to prop up an unprofitable Corby service, but it's a poor use of resources.

As for the OP's point, I think that the current lengths are "okay" (if no additional coaches are to be built), allowing EMT to run in 4/5/7/8/9/10 coach formation.

 

[asylumxl]

Bedford and Luton have their own frequent Thameslink services into London (which will have a capacity increase). The 222s should be used on longer distance journeys.

As do Peterborough and Stevenage, Milton Keynes and Watford and yet they also have long distance services stopping at them. Stevenage is infact closer to London than Luton.

By that logic, then all of those stations should lose their IC service.

 

[Big Chris]

Having pick up only northbound and set down southbound for stations like Luton, Stevenage etc would make sense, keep the long distance services for longer distance passengers. That system works well for Milton Keynes and Watford on West Coast.

 

[tbtc]

As do Peterborough and Stevenage, Milton Keynes and Watford and yet they also have long distance services stopping at them. Stevenage is infact closer to London than Luton.

By that logic, then all of those stations should lose their IC service.

Peterborough is a good bit further out, and is an interchange for East Anglia.

Watford has pick up/set down restrictions.

Milton Keynes has long gaps between long distance trains at busy times (as well as pick up/ set down on some trains IIRC), as the 390s are intended for longer distance services.

Stevenage only gets an hourly peak service (half hourly off peak).

Yet for some reason EMT have two Bedford stops an hour, one Luton stop and one Luton Airport stop. If the 222s concentrated on longer distance passengers then the length would be less of an issue (as they wouldn't be busy with Bedfordshire passengers wanting an alternative to Thameslink).

A token off-peak stop at one of the three stops (like Stevenage gets) with pick up/set down restrictions would make sense, but the current stopping pattern (four trains per hour) is overkill.

Having pick up only northbound and set down southbound for stations like Luton, Stevenage etc would make sense, keep the long distance services for longer distance passengers. That system works well for Milton Keynes and Watford on West Coast.

Agreed - these stations have their own trains for local journeys.

 

[MCR247]

Tbh the Bedford & Luton stops aren't that much bother, although it would definitely be better if instead of going to Corby one went to Derby!

 

[tom1649]

as a side note are the seven car 222's and HST's used interchangeably on services?.

Generally, no. Of course it can happen due to failure of one or other type, but the EMT timetables actually specify what type of train is booked for the service.

 

[MCR247]

HSTs are confined to Nottingham fasts as they can't keep to time on Sheffield fasts

 

[Big Chris]

Sorry to keep asking questions but are the four car trains solely diagrammed for the Corby services? How many trains does that service require?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Sorry to keep asking questions but are the four car trains solely diagrammed for the Corby services? How many trains does that service require?

No they aren't. I've had a 4 car on a Sheffield semi fast twice before, and last time I was at Corby station a 5 car was on the service (picking up and dropping off a load that could easily have fitted a 153).

 

[MCR247]

Saw a 7 car working a Corby whilst I was on a rammed 5 car! Not happy

 

[Pumbaa]

Saw a 7 car working a Corby whilst I was on a rammed 5 car! Not happy

When I did RedDot last year, had a 7 car 222 which was shared by less than 40 people on the 1000 to Corby from St Pancreas. Managed a +1 connection at Kettering onto a rammed 5 car heading for Notts. Not impressed at all.

2 guaranteed 4 car 222 workings are the 1638 off Derby via Mowbray and Corby to London and the xxxx from London which is a 5+4 that arrives at about 1800 into Kettering, 5 goes to Sheffield 4 goes to Corby.

 

[Big Chris]

Thanks for your help.

 

[MCR247]

The 1302 off Nottingham used to be at least booked for a /1 as that is when I got 103 and it appeared in the diagrams that I had at the time

 

[Hairy Bear]

HSTs are confined to Nottingham fasts as they can't keep to time on Sheffield fasts

Oh but we drivers love a challenge.....
A healthy HST can maintain the current timiings for a meridian.
But wether the signalman lets you is another matter, with their love of putting xc and thameslinks out in front all the time.

 

[tom1649]

HSTs are confined to Nottingham fasts as they can't keep to time on Sheffield fasts

The 19.55 London - Leeds is a fast that travels via Derby and is booked for a HST.

 

[sprinterguy]

The 19.55 London - Leeds is a fast that travels via Derby and is booked for a HST.

Indeed, in fact I was just about to mention that a number of EMT HSTs work services to London from Sheffield and Leeds in the morning and then back to Sheffield and Leeds in the evening as a way of getting the trains to and from Neville Hill for servicing, though during the middle of the day they are confined to the Nottingham fasts.

 

[455driver]

Oh but we drivers love a challenge

Makes the day go faster!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Indeed, in fact I was just about to mention that a number of EMT HSTs work services to London from Sheffield and Leeds in the morning and then back to Sheffield and Leeds in the evening as a way of getting the trains to and from Neville Hill for servicing, though during the middle of the day they are confined to the Nottingham fasts.

More regularly recently i have been seeing them appear in the middle of the day 12-2 on sheffield fasts. And i used to 50:50 see one on the 8:27 to london st pancras from sheffield. (havent been there at that time recently but while i was working i saw it some mornings)

So while generally they are confined they do make it up to sheffield without heading to neville hill.

 

[MCR247]

More regularly recently i have been seeing them appear in the middle of the day 12-2 on sheffield fasts. And i used to 50:50 see one on the 8:27 to london st pancras from sheffield. (havent been there at that time recently but while i was working i saw it some mornings)

So while generally they are confined they do make it up to sheffield without heading to neville hill.

They were probably booked for 222s though

 

[Skymonster]

Bedford and Luton have their own frequent Thameslink services into London (which will have a capacity increase). The 222s should be used on longer distance journeys.

Using the Bedford/Luton passengers as an ORCATS raid may be the only way for EMT to to prop up an unprofitable Corby service, but it's a poor use of resources.

Tbh the Bedford & Luton stops aren't that much bother, although it would definitely be better if instead of going to Corby one went to Derby!

ORCATs raid aside, it'd be very nice for the more Northern-bound passengers if they didn't have to compete for seats with Luton/Bedford commuters out of STP on some early evening services!

 

[Batman]

Corby would probably be best served by a 153 running an hourly shuttle service between Kettring and Corby, connecting with London services at Kettring.

I'm not sure if there would be demand for 2 trains a day (one in the morning peak and one in the evening peak) to be opperated by 222's running direct from Corby to/from St Pancras?