Class 313 replacement (Southern Coastway Line)

[RailWonderer]

Having been on a GN 313 yesterday and seen only two 717s in the sidings, I was also surprised to find they still run in the south coast and they are over 40 year old. How is this? Aren't Southern going to replace them? It's completely egregious they keep them given the glut of 350s, 360s, 379s and 707s about to become available. The only excuse is that all these EMUs will be running for more years than expected because the Aventras replacing all of the above are being delayed by months and years. LO, GA, LNWR, SWT, their backlog is ridiculous.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The Southern 313's will be expected to run until at least the end of the franchise

The Southern is mainly a 377 railway and there aren't any going spare. Not sure what the plan is for replacement...

 

[swt_passenger]

None of the classes you mention were available when the GTR franchise was last tendered, and agreed with GoVia. There’s a huge benefit of hindsight here, but as of now they are running until franchise end, possibly to payback the cost of their last overhaul.

With GTR being a management contract, they aren’t going to be reviewing their fleet plan again.

 

[felixthebadger]

This service did have class 377's but they were replaced by the 313's around the end of 2010. I think it was a Dft decision.

 

[jon0844]

When the 313s finally leave GN, which they have to do soon given they're due big exams soon, I would expect they'll be stripped down and help provide parts for Southern's 313s for a while to come.

The 313s have been very reliable and are only now falling apart on GN because they're due to go. They're being patched up and they'll eventually fail miserably if the 717s aren't introduced quickly. But had the 717s not been coming, I am sure they'd go on for quite a while longer without major issues.

I'm not sure if it was true, but I thought at one time there was a suggestion of the GN 313s getting a Southern-style refurb instead of an all-new fleet?

 

[Fincra5]

Having been on a GN 313 yesterday and seen only two 717s in the sidings, I was also surprised to find they still run in the south coast and they are over 40 year old. How is this? Aren't Southern going to replace them? It's completely egregious they keep them given the glut of 350s, 360s, 379s and 707s about to become available. The only excuse is that all these EMUs will be running for more years than expected because the Aventras replacing all of the above are being delayed by months and years. LO, GA, LNWR, SWT, their backlog is ridiculous.

Because GTR is a management franchise for the DfT. Every decision is really down to the DfT. 313/2s have received dispensation to stay in service beyond 31.12.19 And are likely to be in service well into the new franchise, until new stock is procured.

But to break it down. Both 350's, 360's and 379;s will need modding to add 3rd Rail Capability if they were ever to work. 707s would be more likely to replace the metro 455's to keep the 10car Railway.

 

[swt_passenger]

This service did have class 377's but they were replaced by the 313's around 2011/12. I think it was a Dft decision.

I think it was more likely the then incoming TOC’s decision, albeit agreed by the DfT, for the franchise that commenced in Sep 2009.

 

[387star]

They are often overcrowded too

 

[RichJF]

I think one of 2 things might happen...
SWR 707s move over to Southern.
455s & some 377s move down to the Coastway and 313s retired.

Great Northern 313s retired as 717s come onstream. Best 313 examples cherry-picked for transfer to Coastway. Some busy services turned into 6-car. Rest of Southern/GN fleet used as a source of spares.

 

[mic505]

Best examples of GN's 313's would also be used as spares for Merseyrail's Class 507/508 fleet until their 777 replacements arrive
in 2020/21. Southern's 313's are leased until 2021. Won't be replaced until after or during that date.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Great Northern 313s retired as 717s come onstream. Best 313 examples cherry-picked for transfer to Coastway. Some busy services turned into 6-car. Rest of Southern/GN fleet used as a source of spares.

I've no evidence of the state of GN 313s, but I've read that they are, for one, incompatible with Southern 313s owing to differing mods (though they could still work separately), and I'm not sure that any of them will be good to keep running on the Coastway in any case - they're falling apart left, right and centre atm with daily failures. Probably good just for spares.

 

[Fincra5]

I think one of 2 things might happen...
SWR 707s move over to Southern.
455s & some 377s move down to the Coastway and 313s retired.

Great Northern 313s retired as 717s come onstream. Best 313 examples cherry-picked for transfer to Coastway. Some busy services turned into 6-car. Rest of Southern/GN fleet used as a source of spares.

6 car 313's don't work for everyday services. There are too many short platforms along their lines of route for 6 coaches - with no SDO.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If Southern 313's are to remain in service into 2020, can't the GN units be robbed of usuable electrical equipment to keep them going?

Surely Lover's are going to run out of spares soon...?

 

[jon0844]

Hasn't everyone run out of parts? They're being remade in many cases. And presumably that's no longer going to happen with the GN 313s.

I expect that if more units have problems they'll have to short-form some to 3 car and dismantle other units for parts.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Is there anything in the pipeline for Southern's 313 replacement - and for their 455s come to think of it?

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

Is there anything in the pipeline for Southern's 313 replacement - and for their 455s come to think of it?

Since GTR are on a management contract and nothing in that contract apparently talks about 313 replacement on the Coastway (not that I've looked into it; only going by what I've read on these forums), I suspect the tender for the next Southern franchise will specify replacement. Unfortunately that means they'll probably be soldiering on until 2022, or later.

Edit: By then, the Aventras should have bedded down, so assuming that the next Southern operator wants to bring in more Bombardier trains, hopefully it wouldn't be too long to fulfil an order.

 

[Class455]

I think one of 2 things might happen...
SWR 707s move over to Southern.
455s & some 377s move down to the Coastway and 313s retired.

Great Northern 313s retired as 717s come onstream. Best 313 examples cherry-picked for transfer to Coastway. Some busy services turned into 6-car. Rest of Southern/GN fleet used as a source of spares.

I can't imagine the 455's will be going anywhere soon either since they're also leased until 2021. Southern could take back the 456's until the end of the franchise if they wanted to have a 10 car railway across the metro network, or they can also make that 12 coaches should additional ex SWR 455's be leased, but then there's the issue of DOO if Southern were to run 12 car 455's

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Edit: By then, the Aventras should have bedded down, so assuming that the next Southern operator wants to bring in more Bombardier trains, hopefully it wouldn't be too long to fulfil an order.

With the end of the production run of the "classic" 377 family, what would be a suitable replacement for Southern's 313's?

 

[Mollman]

Is there anything in the pipeline for Southern's 313 replacement - and for their 455s come to think of it?

I'd expect that the next franchise will see more 5 or 10 coach EMUs ordered for suburban services. These would directly replace the 455s and allow 3 and 4 car 377s to be cascaded to replace 313s.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

With the end of the production run of the "classic" 377 family, what would be a suitable replacement for Southern's 313's?

If Southern and Bombardier wanted to base a new fleet on something that is already in the works, the Class 701 seems like a good bet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aventra

Though like the Electrostar through its life, the Aventra is a moving target platform capable of both types of electric traction, so any 313 replacement fleet would be just be a version of that at the time the order is made.

 

[Mikey C]

Best examples of GN's 313's would also be used as spares for Merseyrail's Class 507/508 fleet until their 777 replacements arrive
in 2020/21. Southern's 313's are leased until 2021. Won't be replaced until after or during that date.

2021 is only 2 years away which is nothing really.

The Coastway strikes me as the sort of service where you use whatever stock is going spare, rather than ordering new stock for. Maybe the Networkers could be sent down there for example when replaced on Southeastern? They have toilets at least (which the 376s don't)

 

[aleggatta]

I suspect that the SN 313 replacement will be determined when the Southeastern franchise is let. If the rumours are true and they are going for a batch of Hitachi EMU to replace networkers, I would expect that batch to be made slightly bigger to remove the requirement for the 377/5's, and these being returned to SN (23 377/5's for 20? 313's - suitable net capacity increase taking into account a harmonised fleet which should improve unit availablility).

 

[Class455]

I suspect that the SN 313 replacement will be determined when the Southeastern franchise is let. If the rumours are true and they are going for a batch of Hitachi EMU to replace networkers, I would expect that batch to be made slightly bigger to remove the requirement for the 377/5's, and these being returned to SN (23 377/5's for 20? 313's - suitable net capacity increase taking into account a harmonised fleet which should improve unit availablility).

Or 707's could directly or indirectly replace the 377/5's

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I can't imagine the 455's will be going anywhere soon either since they're also leased until 2021. Southern could take back the 456's until the end of the franchise if they wanted to have a 10 car railway across the metro network, or they can also make that 12 coaches should additional ex SWR 455's be leased, but then there's the issue of DOO if Southern were to run 12 car 455's

I believe the 313s on the Coastway are in a much better mechanical and structural condition than the Southern 455s thus any replacement would focus on them first.

 

[JonathanH]

Southern could take back the 456's until the end of the franchise if they wanted to have a 10 car railway across the metro network

Not possible - 10 car doesn't fit at Beckenham Junction or Caterham and is awkward at Tulse Hill.

 

[jopsuk]

There's been rumours that the SouthEastern franchise could see the entire fleet replaced- which would see not only the 377s returned to Southern, but the entire 375 fleet going spare (which can either run un-modified, or, better, be converted to 377 spec/compatibility)

 

[physics34]

the only insider thing i heard a while back is that they want southern to be an electrostar only franchise... (barring 171s of course).

Not sure of the weight behind that when its very possible that the franchise will be split up in 2021.

379s from Stansted Express could be modified...or the 377/5s at southeastern could be utilised

.....as others have mentioned SWTs 455s ,456s and 707s could be an option too if the "electrostar only" idea doesnt come to fruition. . Cant see the southern 455s lasting long past the new franchise.

 

[Doomotron]

There's been rumours that the SouthEastern franchise could see the entire fleet replaced- which would see not only the 377s returned to Southern, but the entire 375 fleet going spare (which can either run un-modified, or, better, be converted to 377 spec/compatibility)

I don't really think that's going to happen...

 

[tbtc]

It's completely egregious they keep them given the glut of 350s, 360s, 379s and 707s about to become available

I'm not defending their use further west along the Coastway but for simple short routes like Brighton to Hove, there's a lot to be said for a simple units - once reason why I've argued that 150s will be around long after the first 180/220/221s are chopped up - 313s are old but old trains are also simple trains, a lot less to go wrong.

I'd guess that the 313s and 455s will go in the *next* franchise, that'll be a big enough order (50+ EMUs) to make it worthwhile, maybe even throw in something self powered to replace the 171s whilst you are at it - but for now the 313s can carrying on doing the unremarkable/ simple services that they do, safe in the knowledge that there will be plenty of "donor" units freed up from the Great Northern.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

but for now the 313s can carrying on doing the unremarkable/ simple services that they do, safe in the knowledge that there will be plenty of "donor" units freed up from the Great Northern.

I'm not so sure about "simple" services; 313's on the south coast are used intensively