Class 314 Replacement

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by alexf380, 27 Nov 2011.

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  1. alexf380

    alexf380 Member

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    I know we're a bit far off yet but by 2014/15 the class 314s will be off the rails and I think now is the time to start speculating what could be it's replacement.
     
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  3. CP165

    CP165 Member

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    As much as I would like Derby to be kept in the game, surely it would make sense to order some more Class 380s to make a start on a uniform electric fleet for Scotrail.
     
  4. ginger

    ginger Member

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    good point! can we also add 313/315/507/508.......all the original PEP stock....

    Although 507/8...ITT issued by Merseyrail for replacemnt fleet....and some of the 315s on the GE inners will be replaced by Crossrail stock....

    Any thoughts? Cl 378?
     
  5. alexf380

    alexf380 Member

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    Yeah, I forgot about them!
    I think Iread somewhere about 378s for Merseyrail?
     
  6. 317 forever

    317 forever Member

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    As Abellio will be sending 9 class 317s off lease, they could replace some class 314s in Glasgow as they are similar to class 318s. They would probably have a carriage removed though.
     
  7. alexf380

    alexf380 Member

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    Probs not. The 314s are currently going through a Life extension refurbishment to keep them until 2015 at the latest.
    http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+314+Relivery+and+Overhaul+2011-2012
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If that does happen I hope there's not the fiasco like at the start of this year!
     
  8. CP165

    CP165 Member

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    Yes exactly! To be honest the Government would only get away with it if they order a large amount of Bombardier stock at the same time
     
  9. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    It wouldn't be worth the cost of reforming or otherwise altering the 317s when they are only two or three years younger than the 314s, and when the 314s have only got a few more years of life in them.

    I fully expect to see either a further batch of 3-car 380s built to replace the 314s.
     
  10. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    These units could easily be knocking around in 2025 at the rate we are going, especially as the Cl319s will apparently be rebuilt and sent into service in the north around 2018 and are only a decade younger than the 314s
     
  11. 317 forever

    317 forever Member

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    In that case I reckon some new class 380s could be built for longish-distance services such as Milngavie to Lanark, releasing class 318s to replace class 314s on inner suburban routes.
     
  12. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I agree, though I'm surprised that we've not discussed 314 replacement on here before (considering there have been more "Pacer Replacement" threads than there have been Pacers to replace!).

    I guess the 314 replacement will be tied to the new EMUs for the new electrification in Scotland (e.g. EGIP) with one big class being ordered. No guarantee that these will directly replace the 314s of course, there'll probably be a little cascade (e.g. 320s), but that'd be my bet.
     
  13. alexf380

    alexf380 Member

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    I think the 320s will be involved somehow.
     
  14. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Trains that go about their work quietly and perform the job they were designed to do adequately seem to get left alone when it comes to talks of fleet replacement. Hence so many threads that have vilified Pacers and Voyagers!
     
    Last edited: 27 Nov 2011
  15. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Ideal units really, like the EMU version of the 156, the type that are so good at doing unspectacular things week in/week out that they end up "under the radar".

    My only criticism is of the small fleets of Scottish EMUs:

    • 314s = 16x 3 car
    • 318 = 21x 3 car
    • 320 = 22x 3 car

    ...for all that I complain about the "tiny" classes of modern units like 175s, these really are small fleets (yeah, I appreciate that they are essentially differently numbered versions of equivalent "English" EMUs, in the way that a 322 is just a 321, but you know what I mean...).

    Since it doesn't seem economical to do a newbuild of just sixteen replacement EMUs, I'd expect any new EMUs to be part of a bigger order (such a the EGIP one).
     
  16. ajax103

    ajax103 Established Member

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    I agree, it would make more sense for Transport Scotland to place a order for more Class 380/1s on top of the existing 38 Class 380s that are in Scotland thus making it the main EMU traction within Scotland.

    As to EGIP, how many DMUs would be freed up by electrification of the Central Belt and will there be platform lengthening to extend platforms to 8 cars thus allowing peak services between Glasgow and Edinburgh via Croy as a example to be 8 car Class 380s as the Class 380s are already available and as a tested design will be able to enter service much quicker as the train crews will already have been trained on them.
     
  17. tom1649

    tom1649 Member

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    314s? I'm sure they've got a good few years left in them yet. There's no complicated electronics in them to go wrong. Age may not be everything - it is clear that these have been far better maintained than the former South Eastern 508s, which through no fault of their own have been run into the ground and as a result are unlikely to work again.

    To me it seems to be madness to be replacing superior 1970s stock when there is far worse 1980s stock running around (of the four wheel variety). On these there aren't even any toilets to worry about making them DDA compliant!

    Just because something is getting on in years doesn't mean it can't remain 'fit for purpose'. Look at the 'A' stock on the Metropolitan line, still in service today despite being built in 1960.
     
  18. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    The service through Falkirk High uses doubled up 170s every fifteen minutes on a two hour cycle (single units off-peak), which needs sixteen DMUs, so maybe you need eighteen/twenty units.

    Add in roughly the same number of DMUs for the Edinburgh/Glasgow - Dunblane/Alloa service (in total), plus a few more for the "infill"s, roughly speaking you are talking the same number of DMUs freed as the total number of FSR 158s (48).

    Just my maths, am happy to be corrected.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Good points, I've highlighted the two that jumped out at me
     
  19. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    Not in Scotland though eh ;)
     
  20. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    EMUs from that era seem to go on and on, perhaps they could justify a "Networker Classic" style reconstruction of all these EMUs with new bodyshells.

    I think it really is a pity that that project didnt go forward for whatever reason.
     
  21. LE Greys

    LE Greys Established Member

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    I've often wondered why the 318s weren't 317/8s and so on. I know they used different traction motors, but that seemed to be about it.

    As for the current PEP-based fleet, we really need a bunch of extra 378s, certainly to replace the 313s (provided they can fit down the tunnels) and probably the 315s as well. Not so sure about the 50Xs, but likely. Perhaps all the other GN-line stock could be replaced with 379s, providing a cascade of 365s to somwhere else, plus a few more useable 321s, thus phasing out all the remaining 317s on NXEA. Not sure where the 317s would go, but they are getting on a bit as well.
     
  22. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I've not done the post-Crossrail maths, but if you could build one big fleet of EMUs to replace 313/ 314/ 315/ 507/ 508s and to run on the electrified Cardiff Valleys (similar short distance work suited to EMUs with big doors etc) then you'd have a very interesting template :)
     
  23. LE Greys

    LE Greys Established Member

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    That makes a lot of sense, and would provide enough work to keep Derby busy for a decade or so. Basically, it's what BR tried to do with the PEP-type units in the first place, and would probably have done with the Networkers. A diesel version would be interesting as well, since it would provide a cheaper alternative to the 172s when it comes to replacing Pacers and Sprinters.
     
  24. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    The older 317s are only a year or two younger than the 315s. But the 315s are by far the youngest of the "PEP" type classes.
     
  25. 158722

    158722 Member

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    By the time the 314s come up for replacement (2015 to 2019 perhaps?), this will coincide with the EGIP plan as mentioned and possible Glasgow southside fill-in schemes (Whifflet is planned I believe, with Paisley Canal and East Kilbride expected and Kilmarnock a possibility I would imagine). I would doubt any direct 314 replacements would be considered, but adding on an equivalent or greater number of EGIP units (everyone seems to think more 380s!) would seem logical, thus allowing a cascade of 334s, 320, 318s with the 314s dropping out of service. Either the 318s or 320s would surely be enough to cover existing 314 turns plus Whifflet, Paisley Canal, East Kilbride along with a additional few 380s to maintain just the 2 classes out of Glasgow Central High Level. The 334s and 318 or 320s could then be concentrated on Argyll line services with the additional EGIP units used on Edinburgh-Helensburgh services, along with the 334s as now.

    I think the EGIP scheme should free up around 38 DMUs (Edinburgh-Glasgow, Glasgow-Dunblane/Alloa/Falkirk Grahamston & Edinburgh-Dunblane should all go electric), so allowing for capacity building, a similar number of 3 and 4-car EMUs could be expected - added to a 314 replacement and additional southside units, then an order of close to 60 EMUs could be a very tempting project - assuming we still have some money left for this by then! The benefit for England would surely be an exodus of 156s, 158s and even 170s south to allow Pacers to be replaced.
     
  26. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I agree with all that. You'd have a class (380) with around a hundred units (including those already in service), which seem to work pretty well. More please!
     
  27. SC318250

    SC318250 Member

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    I think the if the 318 or 320 end up replacing the Class 314, then yes Paisley Canal and East Kilbride could be covered by one fleet (including Neilston, Newton & Cathcart), however the Whifflet will come under the Argyle Line fleet, when it diverts to the low level when electrified.
     
  28. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
    the only thing I'd say here is maybe order an extra 25 380s on top of those mentioned by 158722 and TBTC as the 318s woant go on for ever and if delivered in phases with the EGIP units first then the rest it would mean there was a ready replacement for 318s

    This in my mind would leav things looking like this:

    2 plus 2 4 car units on Edinburgh to Glasgow/Stirling/Dunblane/Allowa
    4 car units split 5050 with 2 plus 2 and 3 plus 2 on0Hellensburgh via A to B
    334s cascaded back to Argyle line and suburban work
    320s on remaining suburban units

    dMU wise cascade refurbished turbostars to southwest Scotland, West highland and far north freeing up units to move south and order a deezol version of the 380 with a good fuel efficient engin and a seat you can sit on for more than an hour for express aberdeen and inverness work.
     
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