Class 317 - breaking in to rear cab?

[jon0844]

I think it's mainly about perception.

Assuming this isn't actually a big problem, and probably just one or two serial offenders (on account of the fact that they're always let off) I think a short sharp shock is in order and that's it; problem solved.

 

[BestWestern]

I can certainly see where you are coming from but I just can't see what damage anyone could actually do in the rear cab, none of the controls are live or anything and as for terrorists they could just as easily hide something in a toilet or under a seat etc as break into the rear cab.

Well, you have the emergency brake, presumably a 'butterfly' valve which opens the crew external door and brings you to a grinding halt, switches for head/tail lamps, a very loud horn to play with, the NRN/CSR/GSM-R - with which hitting the red button will stop every train in the area, the PA system, a wall full of circuit breakers, etc etc etc. Rather a lot of buttons and switches which are in fact live, and that I would imagine most Drivers would prefer were kept locked out of reach of the great unwashed! Guards are not permitted to allow passengers into the rear cab of their train for the same reason, even with supervision.

The terrorist threat is ever-present of course, but the fact remains that a 'Severe' security threat really ought to mean staff being vigilant against anything 'suspicious', which in my book would certainly include passengers helping themselves to empty cabs.

 

[jon0844]

I presume A-driver IS a driver, so if all of what you said is correct then it's very worrying that it might not be considered a risk to let a commuter sit there and be quiet.

Simply slipping on a button might be enough to cause problems, however unintentional. The person might, after all, get into the cab when the train is moving when most crew would do so when the train is still.

 

[A-driver]

There are no accessible buttons or butterfly valves in the 313-the cab is locked separately and there is nothing in the vestibule that can be accessed without a carriage key. As for a 317 you are correct with the butterfly valve for the door-although this won't put the brakes on, only loose interlock. None of the controls bar the emergency brake will do anything without a master key on - same on any MU.

My point is still being missed though-there is damage you could do in there with isolation cocks and MCBs etc if you really wanted to but to be honest if you have the keys to access them in a cab then you can also access them within the coaches-isol cocks under seats, MCBs in body end cupboards etc.

I am not saying its fine to travel in the cab but saying that we are talking here about commuters doing it who are just trying to get to work and arnt there to cause problems-we are not talking about criminals intent on damage who will find a way to get into those areas if they are determined enough no matter what the deterrent.

And yes, I am actually a driver and I don't see why people are so shocked that I would be happy just kicking people out of the rear cab and wouldn't demand the train is held up whilst I get the police to attend and try to make the passenger wait with me for them when they will just get a slapped wrist and I will most probably be asked to justify the delays etc.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry-just fully read best westerns post and yes of course I agree there are things like tail lights, horn, MCBs accessible in 317s (not 313s) but still missing my point that the people we are talking about here are not looking to cause trouble. The lady I referred to on the peterbourgh route I am told on both occasions was just sitting in the second mans seat reading a book, not playing with all the switches.

 

[Eng274]

There are no accessible buttons or butterfly valves in the 313-the cab is locked separately and there is nothing in the vestibule that can be accessed without a carriage key.

I don't know if the 313s are different from 314s, but in the vestibule you still have access to local door switches and open/close buttons?

As for a 317 you are correct with the butterfly valve for the door-although this won't put the brakes on, only loose interlock. None of the controls bar the emergency brake will do anything without a master key on - same on any MU.

Which interlock, traction or door? I'd imagine it was 'door' in which case I'm pretty sure the brakes would come on (as indeed they should, thats a serious high risk incident if a door can open in motion without brake intervention). There have been cases where delays have been caused by a not-fully-closed crew valve giving unsolicited brake applications.

My point is still being missed though-there is damage you could do in there with isolation cocks and MCBs etc if you really wanted to but to be honest if you have the keys to access them in a cab then you can also access them within the coaches-isol cocks under seats, MCBs in body end cupboards etc.

True, but they're not laid bare for anyone to see in the saloon. Not many people would know that ASIC or ASM stands for, nor think that there was an iso cock inside it.

I am not saying its fine to travel in the cab but saying that we are talking here about commuters doing it who are just trying to get to work and arnt there to cause problems-we are not talking about criminals intent on damage who will find a way to get into those areas if they are determined enough no matter what the deterrent.

And yes, I am actually a driver and I don't see why people are so shocked that I would be happy just kicking people out of the rear cab and wouldn't demand the train is held up whilst I get the police to attend and try to make the passenger wait with me for them when they will just get a slapped wrist and I will most probably be asked to justify the delays etc.

Personally I'd rather hold a train up for a few minutes than be asked the awkward questions after a cab is trashed or a senior TOC manager spots it happening: "how long have you allowed passengers to continue travelling in the rear cab despite it being out of bounds to the public?". There isn't an industry rule that forbids being late, IMO that's the difference. I respect your opinion and the inconvenience that troubleshooting the nuisance brings, but for peace of mind I'd prefer that more was done to prevent it.

 

[A-driver]

The local door open close switches only work with a key on in that cab.

Door interlock and traction interlock are the same thing- both prevent you taking power. But on unmodified 317s like those on the GN route loss of interlock does not apply the brakes. It does on newer units or modified units.

The isol valves in the cans are not laid bare, they are locked away in cupboards exactly the same as in the passenger bits.

To be honest I'm getting bored of this thread. Perhaps my point is being missed but it is going in circles. Passengers should not be in out of use cabs ever. We all agree on that. I am purely stating that the average commuter who chances it in there on a busy train will not be looking to cause trouble or play about with things. Those who want access to cabs to cause problems will not be deterred by the threat of arrest or police action-it is like thinking taking away your driving licence will stop you from joy riding. If I was to ever catch a punter in the cab I would kick them out but unless I thought they were trying to cause damage or plant a bomb I very much doubt in reality I would go as far as calling the police.

 

[O L Leigh]

Rather a lot of detailed technical information in this thread about what does what. I'm going to be very cautious the next time I'm in a Cl317. Can we just say that there is kit in the cabs that can be (ab)used by anyone in there and leave it at that...?

O L Leigh

 

[BestWestern]

I think we've all exhausted our thoughts on this one! Probably time to put it to bed, just be careful out there folks....!!

 

[O L Leigh]

Yes, er thanks. Probably a bit late for that now.

O L Leigh