Class 323 cascade to Midlands

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by po8crg, 24 Aug 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. po8crg

    po8crg Member

    Messages:
    559
    Joined:
    6 Feb 2014
    Per Manchester Evening News, Porterbrook are moving their 323s from the Manchester commuter routes to the Midlands.

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...three-commuter-rail-routes-manchester-9914651

     
    Last edited by a moderator: 24 Aug 2015
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    There was a thread on this a few weeks ago but the moderators merged it in to this thread: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110701

    There's no new information in that article. Other than apparently Northern only use the 323s on 3 routes instead of 4 routes. No confirmation of 323s going to LM, still just speculation following a claim Porterbrook won't lease 323s to the next Northern operator.
     
  4. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,829
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    Can't say I've noticed much fury about.
    17 trains are not going to evaporate with no replacement.
    It might be Christmas before the veil is lifted on the new franchise.
    I doubt a complete switch to a different train type can be engineered by next April anyway.
     
  5. thealexweb

    thealexweb Member

    Messages:
    905
    Joined:
    5 Jan 2014
    Will the next Northern just be offered more Class 319s. Thete may be downsides, e.g. poorer acceleration, but having more standardised EMU fleets here and in the West Midlands will be handy.
     
  6. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Short answer is we don't know.

    There's also suggestions it was intended 350/4s would head to Northern for Regional Express but Angel/Porterbrook want the /1s, /3s and /4s to be together for consistency but they aren't bothered if the /2s finish up with a different operator which has led to suggestions about Northern getting 350/2s.

    Porterbrook may also be trying to sell in 319s upgrades to TOCs which include an option for rewired 3 car trains with faster acceleration as well as one for fitting corridor connections.
     
  7. 507 001

    507 001 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,260
    Joined:
    3 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Huyton
    350/2s please!!!!!!
     
  8. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

    Messages:
    10,597
    Joined:
    28 Jun 2010
    *insert usual pedantic post about the train in the picture not matching the trains in the article*

    Well paul - looks like you will be getting a new mode of transport after all :)
     
  9. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,751
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    Don't worry - I saw somebody commenting today on a picture of a Class 142 Pacer in everyday Northern skin, stating quite assuredly that it is a Northern Electric train :lol:
     
  10. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Apparently they'll be a report on North West Tonight about it this evening.
     
  11. Silverlinky

    Silverlinky Member

    Messages:
    289
    Joined:
    3 Feb 2012
    This would make sense, the /1, /3 and /4's are all owned by Angel and the /2's are owned by Porterbrook. The /2's go "off lease" from LM in April 2016 so could be moved elsewhere then.
     
  12. 59CosG95

    59CosG95 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,420
    Joined:
    18 Aug 2013
    Location:
    WIM/PBO
    But won't we have rather a dearth of EMUs if such a manouvre goes ahead?
     
  13. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Northern have only secured 20 x 319s so far and only the 333s are guaranteed to be with the next Northern franchise.
     
  14. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,808
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Unless of course they (or their competing franchise applicants) have secured far more and haven't publicised it yet.

    Do you think their highest priority is telling the public what their plans are - given that DfT prohibit franchise bidders from making any announcements at this stage of proceedings?
     
  15. bluenoxid

    bluenoxid Established Member

    Messages:
    2,003
    Joined:
    9 Feb 2008
    *outpouring of grief at losing favourite type of train and wondering what the last service will be*

    It's going to be very interesting over the next few months!
     
    Last edited: 24 Aug 2015
  16. Bungle965

    Bungle965 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,535
    Joined:
    2 Jul 2014
    Location:
    Blackley and Broughton/ Walsall South
    X2
    Sam
     
  17. LeylandLen

    LeylandLen Member

    Messages:
    704
    Joined:
    28 Oct 2013
    Location:
    Leyland Lancs
    Yes , here it is in this BBC page http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-34040948 Not only does the article refer to (Northern class 323) electric trains , but they use a picture of a TPE Class 185 diesel train !!!
     
  18. childwallblues

    childwallblues Established Member

    Messages:
    1,687
    Joined:
    3 Jul 2014
    Location:
    Liverpool, UK
    And there was me thinking that the diesel train was a 144.
     
  19. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Bit difficult to sign a lease if you don`t know whether you`ll be running the services. Only if all the bidders proposed using the same number of 319s and have agreements with Porterbrook can any thing be said for certain.

    Northern as they currently exist won`t be running services after April next year, it`ll be a new company.

    Not sure if it was an error but North West Tonight said the 323s will leave the Manchester area in 2019.
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,808
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    All I'm saying is that any individual bidder's negotiations with Porterbrook are not in the public domain, because DfT won't allow it.

    It's possible the first we'll hear of the solution is on the day the franchise is awarded, or more likely after the standstill period. It's just they way it is done. Surely all the bidders are in the same position, they cannot sign leases until the franchise is awarded?
     
    Last edited: 24 Aug 2015
  21. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,829
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    What we don't know is if negotiations are proceeding on the LM direct award with Govia.
    It's entirely possible Govia came up with a Northern plan which optimised the LM+Northern fleets, something that the other bidders (Arriva, Abellio) would find harder to do.
    Either way, we are not going to know for a good while yet.
     
  22. WatcherZero

    WatcherZero Established Member

    Messages:
    9,327
    Joined:
    25 Feb 2010
    We know it was Porterbrook that came up with the plans, they speculatively refused to sign a new lease for the 323's with Northern bidders in the hope they could then sign a deal with Midland. The motivation was the reduction in supply chain and maintenenance staff/parts cost.
     
  23. Viscount702

    Viscount702 Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    7 Sep 2011
    Am I missing something here. LM are in no better position to sign a lease as their own franchise runs out in April as I understand it. The only way I can see that LM get the 323s is if The Government agrees to it as part of any new direct award.
     
  24. thealexweb

    thealexweb Member

    Messages:
    905
    Joined:
    5 Jan 2014
    I do not see why the Class 350/Xs are being dragged into this. Yet more micro fleets to maintain hundreds of miles apart. If the next Northern Rail franchise needs more EMUs a standard fleet is needed, e.g. strip Northern of all its Class 32Xs and send every single Class 319 north as replacements. The 66 Class 319s Northern Rail does not already have at its disposal replacing 3 x Class 321/9, 5 x Class 322, 17 x Class 323 and 16 x Class 333. Also allows for replacement as well as Phases 3 to 7 of the NW electrification.
     
    Last edited: 25 Aug 2015
  25. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    10,489
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Up to thirty seven class 350/2s is not really a "micro fleet" (though I have nothing to substantiate the veracity of any such claim future Northern bidders might have on such stock); when you consider that Northern currently have "only" seventeen 323s and twenty 319s.

    I also don't see how Northern would benefit from standardising on a single class of EMU for allocations very distinct of each other East and West of the Pennines: Neville Hill depot staff and Leeds area traincrew have up to 25 years experience on class 321 units and around 15 years on the class 333s: Who benefits from re-training all these staff (granted the conversion from 321/322 to 319 is fairly simple) on a different class of unit?

    Certainly, not the passengers on the Airedale and Wharfedale lines who would have to cope with older, shorter trains. Such standardisation surely only makes sense to the most arbitrary of bean counters with no intimate knowledge of the areas served.
     
    Last edited: 25 Aug 2015
  26. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

    Messages:
    30,637
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Metro have a guarantee the 333s will remain in the Leeds area until at least 2020.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    You could also argue the 350s aren't a consistent fleet at LM. The 350/2s haven't been uprated to 110mph and they have different interiors.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    47,141
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    The concern about microfleets is mainly about maintenance. 350/2s are technically very similar to /1s.
     
  28. 158722

    158722 Member

    Messages:
    803
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2009
    We've had this discussion on the original thread on this theme. One of the conclusions being that Northern could quite happily find work for the 37 350/2s in the North west, replacing the 17 323s (if that rumour comes true) with the rest on the proposed Regional Express services from Liverpool, Manchester to Blackpool and Windermere, etc. There was never any mention of 350/2s going east as sufficient work seems to exist or will exist sometime soon in the west.
     
  29. 12guard4

    12guard4 Member

    Messages:
    272
    Joined:
    23 Jul 2015
    Can't see LM getting in 17 323s in almost a swap for 350/2s. Makes no sense because then the problem remains of having a small fleet to maintain. Not sure what LM would do with 17 323s although speculation is that LM will turn into a midlands franchise so it is possible they will operate only 323s on the Cross City, WVH-WSL and Coventry routes and lose all 350s to West Coast. Just a thought
     
  30. 323235

    323235 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,715
    Joined:
    8 Dec 2007
    Location:
    North East Cheshire
    This is precisely what London Midland would do with 17 x 323s:

    Make all CrossCity services or almost all 6 car (I know many are already) , 3tph to Redditch and the services to Bromsgrove. That takes a sizable proportion and any left over use on the other lines International/Walsall/Wolves or Electrified Chase Line
     
  31. D365

    D365 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,751
    Joined:
    29 Jun 2012
    As has been said on numerous occasions, the 37-strong Class 350/2 fleet at either LM or Northern (with the 10 350/4s and additional 319s moving to LM?) is not a small fleet at all.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page