Class 323 cascade to Midlands

[158722]

Can't see LM getting in 17 323s in almost a swap for 350/2s. Makes no sense because then the problem remains of having a small fleet to maintain. Not sure what LM would do with 17 323s although speculation is that LM will turn into a midlands franchise so it is possible they will operate only 323s on the Cross City, WVH-WSL and Coventry routes and lose all 350s to West Coast. Just a thought

What small fleet? Northern with 37 350/2s, 20 319s or LM with 43 323s?

Again this was covered on the other thread, LM could deploy 4 323s on Walsall-Wolves vice 350s, they will need at least 4 for the Chase Line, another pair for Bromsgrove (as the extra units freed up by the 350/3 arrivals already seem to be diagrammed), another 2 for Nuneaton-Coventry (assuming that project is still getting wired), leaving another 3 units for making more cross city services up to 6-car. 15 from 17 extra units can be diagrammed easily.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is precisely what London Midland would do with 17 x 323s:

Make all CrossCity services or almost all 6 car (I know many are already) , 3tph to Redditch and the services to Bromsgrove. That takes a sizable proportion and any left over use on the other lines International/Walsall/Wolves or Electrified Chase Line

Or even the sometimes proposed Birmingham to Man Picc via Crewe, transferred from Northern?

 

[Hophead]

Bit difficult to sign a lease if you don`t know whether you`ll be running the services. Only if all the bidders proposed using the same number of 319s and have agreements with Porterbrook can any thing be said for certain.

Northern as they currently exist won`t be running services after April next year, it`ll be a new company.

Not sure if it was an error but North West Tonight said the 323s will leave the Manchester area in 2019.

Rail are also reporting that the move would happen when the leases expire in 2018/19. Provision of EMUs to the Chase line, as well as Bromsgrove, would be required before this though, unless Network Rail encounter the same problems in Staffordshire as in Wiltshire, Berkshire & Lancashire.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Wait.. I'm a little confused all of a sudden. The Northern Class 323s lease end is shown on the Porterbrook website as 07/02/2016..

Thanks,
Ross

 

[pemma]

Wait.. I'm a little confused all of a sudden. The Northern Class 323s lease end is shown on the Porterbrook website as 07/02/2016..

Thanks,
Ross

I've noticed Tony Miles (from Modern Railways) has posted on wnxx that he had a conversation on his mobile with BBC's Arif Ansari while he was in the West Country doing a feature for ITV West where Ansari asked him about the 323s and also talked about Pacer replacement. He said Ansari got the wrong end of the stick and quoted the deadline for Pacer replacement as the deadline for replacing the 323s.

There's nothing in the Northern ITT about it being a requirement to take on the 323s. Although, there is one in the TPE ITT about it being a requirement to take on the 350/4s until at least September 2018 and one in the Northern ITT about it being a requirement to take on the 333s until some date in 2020, so I would think the Porterbrook website is correct.

I notice the Rail article doesn't say the lease expires then but says they will "have access to the Class 323 until 2018/2019." It doesn't say that will be on a direct lease (opposed to a sublease) or confirm that Northern can keep all 17 until then. I wonder if the September 2018 lease expiry date for 350/4s is connected to that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Provision of EMUs to the Chase line, as well as Bromsgrove, would be required before this though

As previously mentioned the increase of the number of 350/3s ordered from 7 to 10 was to allow for West Midlands electrification.

 

[mandub]

Is likely just the the usual railway gossip.....

But I spoke to an Alstom engineer who was on my train today (works out of Longsight Depot) and he seemed pretty sure the 323's were on their way to Bham from early next year. Said that they'd heard Freightliner (I think) drivers would be trained up on 323's to take them south from Longsight/Mcr as they sign the required route to get them there etc.

 

[158722]

As previously mentioned the increase of the number of 350/3s ordered from 7 to 10 was to allow for West Midlands electrification.

In theory, you are quite right, but what seems to have happened in practice is that extra capacity has been (sensibly) absorbed already, with the 3 323s displaced on the Wolves-Walsall turns used for the extra Redditch requirements and more 6-car sets. 24 from the 26 LM 323s seem to be diagrammed Mon to Fri, meaning that when Brosmgrove goes live an extra set (or 2 sets if any 6-car workings are diagrammed there) will need to be found - 6-cars back to 3 or extra sets from elsewhere?

 

[pemma]

In theory, you are quite right, but what seems to have happened in practice is that extra capacity has been (sensibly) absorbed already, with the 3 323s displaced on the Wolves-Walsall turns used for the extra Redditch requirements and more 6-car sets. 24 from the 26 LM 323s seem to be diagrammed Mon to Fri, meaning that when Brosmgrove goes live an extra set (or 2 sets if any 6-car workings are diagrammed there) will need to be found - 6-cars back to 3 or extra sets from elsewhere?

But then there was also a suggestion LM were set to secure some additional 319s as part of the Direct Award, which could indirectly be used to provide the extra capacity the 3 x 350/3s are currently providing.

 

[geoffk]

A point not mentioned (I think) is that replacing a 3-car 323 with a 4-car 319 will require some platforms to be lengthened. The biggest problem might be the bay at Stoke. Who will pay for this work?

Reducing some of the 319s to 3-car would require a lot of equipment to be relocated - it's not just a matter of taking one car out.

The inferior performance of the 319 has been mentioned. This could be critical on the Crewe and Stoke lines which are shared with Pendolinos and Voyagers. An extra hourly Macclesfield stopper is shown in the ITT. If/when that starts, we could see the Stoke train omitting some stops such as Adlington.

 

[pemma]

A point not mentioned (I think) is that replacing a 3-car 323 with a 4-car 319 will require some platforms to be lengthened. The biggest problem might be the bay at Stoke. Who will pay for this work?

Reducing some of the 319s to 3-car would require a lot of equipment to be relocated - it's not just a matter of taking one car out.

Note 319 carriages are just under 20m in length while 323 carriages are just over 23.5m in length so having 3 car 319s would be terrible for capacity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A point not mentioned (I think) is that replacing a 3-car 323 with a 4-car 319 will require some platforms to be lengthened. The biggest problem might be the bay at Stoke. Who will pay for this work?

Stoke P3 is OK, it's 88m long.
It used to host class 304s after all.

 

[geoffk]

Thanks for clarifying that. So a 4-car 319 is around 10m longer than a 3-car 323. Would that be critical at some stations served by 323s?

 

[mandub]

Thanks for clarifying that. So a 4-car 319 is around 10m longer than a 3-car 323. Would that be critical at some stations served by 323s?

on the Glossop line I'd imagine Flowery Field and Godley would be a problem

 

[Geeves]

Apparently the deal with DB at Springs Branch is almost complete, Make of that what you will for the extra 319s required. Allerton can apparently hold 34 in total over night.

 

[geoffk]

Presumably the extra 323s will also be used on the Birmingham - Rugeley service when that goes live.

Both the trains I saw at Alvechurch the other week were of six cars.

 

[Techniquest]

Manchester won't be the same without 323s, which is definitely sad. However, bringing them to the Midlands suits me just fine, more Starships to enjoy down my way!

Certainly wasn't expecting this bit of news tonight, shall be interesting to see how things go!

 

[Bungle965]

Manchester won't be the same without 323s, which is definitely sad. However, bringing them to the Midlands suits me just fine, more Starships to enjoy down my way!

Certainly wasn't expecting this bit of news tonight, shall be interesting to see how things go!

Deffinatly agree with you there, the planners will have some work to do when time comes. To keep the 319s out of the way of the fast services.
Sam

 

[geoffk]

Going back to train lengths, I'm told that the signal was moved back along platform 3 at Stoke when the area was resignalled. It only just takes a 323 with about a couple of yards to spare, at most. So the platform itself may be long enough but a signal would need relocating. I'll have to go and see for myself!

 

[sd0733]

350s are definitely cleared for the bay so a 319 would be ok lengthwise

 

[Rail Ranger]

Petition to keep the 323s in GM:

https://www.change.org/p/george-osb...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

 

[D365]

Petition to keep the 323s in GM:

https://www.change.org/p/george-osb...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

Don't the Pacers have to leave service due to law changes?

Is it just me who finds that Mr Axford is writing as if the 120 brand-new self-powered carriages to be supplied in the next Northern franchise will be Class 319s..? Of which he does not seem to be aware that 59 units are still available for post-Thameslink 'adoption', with only (up to) seven transferring to LM initially.

Whatever plans exist to replace the Class 323s, their replacement will be electric.

 

[158722]

Petition to keep the 323s in GM:

https://www.change.org/p/george-osb...utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

Waste of time and effort. Why not wait and see what the replacements are going to be? Perhaps there might even be an improvement/newer stock such as the 350/2s?

 

[43074]

Is it just me who finds that Mr Axford is writing as if the 120 brand-new self-powered carriages to be supplied in the next Northern franchise will be Class 319s..? Of which he does not seem to be aware that 59 units are still available for post-Thameslink 'adoption', with only (up to) seven transferring to LM initially.

Whatever plans exist to replace the Class 323s, their replacement will be electric.

There's also the fact that the successful Northern franchisee will have 'access' to them until 2018/2019 which suggests some sort of sub-leasing agreement will be in place...

I think it's all been rather hyped up, we've only heard half of the story.

 

[pemma]

P137 of Network Rail's CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan under train lengthening

"Hadfield - Dinting – Glossop – Manchester rail capacity improvements – scope to be identified." - might relate to replacing 323s?

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/delivery-plans/control-period-5/cp5-delivery-plan/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well paul - looks like you will be getting a new mode of transport after all

As long as it is not "THAT" from the Vivarail stable...

 

[CdBrux]

As long as it is not "THAT" from the Vivarail stable...

No, it'll either be the things currently running into Moorgate, or the possibly-to-be-replaced Merseyrail units. I heard they'll be (re)naming one of them "Xenophon philosopher".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No, it'll either be the things currently running into Moorgate, or the possibly-to-be-replaced Merseyrail units.

I heard they'll be (re)naming one of them "Xenophon philosopher".

At least, that shows they have a certain amount of good taste. I am indeed most impressed by this news....

 

[Kite159]

Is it just me who finds that Mr Axford is writing as if the 120 brand-new self-powered carriages to be supplied in the next Northern franchise will be Class 319s..? Of which he does not seem to be aware that 59 units are still available for post-Thameslink 'adoption', with only (up to) seven transferring to LM initially.

Whatever plans exist to replace the Class 323s, their replacement will be electric.

15p on the replacements for the 323s in Manchester to eventually be the 315s released in a few years time by TfL Rail & LOROL

 

[Greybeard33]

P137 of Network Rail's CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan under train lengthening

"Hadfield - Dinting – Glossop – Manchester rail capacity improvements – scope to be identified." - might relate to replacing 323s?

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/publications/delivery-plans/control-period-5/cp5-delivery-plan/

The Plan also adds, following the above quote:

The scope will be determined by the rolling stock strategy for services in the North West and
the operational plans of the relevant train operators

Reading between the lines, NR would appear to be considering the possibility of ~10m extensions to the 75m platforms at Flowery Field and Godley, so that 4x20m units could be used on the Glossop/Hadfield line.

15p on the replacements for the 323s in Manchester to eventually be the 315s released in a few years time by TfL Rail & LOROL

You may jest, but I would guess that the acceleration and platform dwell time of a 315 would match or better the timing performance of a 323 on the Glossop/Hadfield line - and provide a significant capacity improvement.

 

[D365]

You may jest, but I would guess that the acceleration and platform dwell time of a 315 would match or better the timing performance of a 323 on the Glossop/Hadfield line - and provide a significant capacity improvement.

A PEP unit wouldn't top the acceleration on a 323, the Holec AC traction package installed on the latter type is far more advanced. A significant interior refurbishment would also be required to bring a 315 up to standard, bearing in mind that the type is coming to their end of life.