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Class 331 trains

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anti-pacer

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Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but without trawling through masses of posts, I'm not sure of the answers to these questions.

1) Which routes will these be deployed on?

2) Are these replacing the 321/322/323 units, and if so, where will these end up?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Domh245

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My understanding is that they'll operate on West Yorkshire electrified routes and will also replace 323 units in the Manchester area (so services to Glossop/Hadfield, Stoke, Crewe). They will replace the 321 and 322s which will in all likelihood end up with Greater Anglia, but the 333s will stay. 323s return to porterbrook with a view to going to London Midland
 
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D365

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1) Which routes will these be deployed on?

Regarding West Yorkshire, all routes which the 333s are currently deployed on.

2) Are these replacing the 321/322/323 units, and if so, where will these end up?

Replacing the Class 321/322 fleet and supplementing the Class 333s. The 16 three-car units will operate in pairs on the busiest services, and on their own during the quieter off-peaks.
 

J-2739

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1)The three car units will be deployed on electrified commuter routes around West Yorkshire to work along side the 333's. The four car units will end up on electrified routes from Manchester Piccadilly.

2)All three will be replaced. The 323's will return back to leasing company Porterbrook. Don't know were the 321/322's will go though.
 

anti-pacer

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Regarding West Yorkshire, all routes which the 333s are currently deployed on.



Replacing the Class 321/322 fleet and supplementing the Class 333s. The 16 three-car units will operate in pairs on the busiest services, and on their own during the quieter off-peaks.

Are all Airedale and Wharfedale lines platforms long enough for 6-car operation?
 

D365

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Are all Airedale and Wharfedale lines platforms long enough for 6-car operation?

Platform extensions are part of the plan at stations where six-car 331s will be stopping.
 

anti-pacer

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Are there any plans for an increase in frequency?

At present there are 6tph between Leeds and just before Apperley Bridge where the Ilkley line branches off, plus the Carlisle/Morecambe services. Could the line absorb an increase?
 

30907

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It could, at least towards Shipley (even in the peak, if platforms could be found at Leeds) but running longer trains makes more sense.
 

anti-pacer

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It could, at least towards Shipley (even in the peak, if platforms could be found at Leeds) but running longer trains makes more sense.

I was thinking of an hourly semi-fast from Leeds to Skipton calling at Shipley, Bingley and Keighley.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I was thinking of an hourly semi-fast from Leeds to Skipton calling at Shipley, Bingley and Keighley.

There's already some, in the hours that Carlisle (well, Appleby for now) and Morecambe services run. I could see an advantage in filling the gaps with a semi-fast EMU, but you'd either need extra units that would go unused most of the time, or you'd be depriving another service of capacity in those hours.
 

anti-pacer

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There's already some, in the hours that Carlisle (well, Appleby for now) and Morecambe services run. I could see an advantage in filling the gaps with a semi-fast EMU, but you'd either need extra units that would go unused most of the time, or you'd be depriving another service of capacity in those hours.

Won't the amount of units cease to be a problem after the new ones are delivered?
 

61653 HTAFC

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Won't the amount of units cease to be a problem after the new ones are delivered?

The number of units will be based on the proposed timetable coupled with maintenance requirements. A pair of units that each run between Leeds and Skipton only once every other hour (and sits idle between those trips) still has to be leased so still costs money- whilst things will undoubtedly be less austere under the new franchise, I'm not sure the Department for Transport would be keen on what might be viewed as a wasteful practice.

It may be that there ends up being a glut of 1980s EMUs going off lease, so ROSCOs may offer favourable terms for TOCs to take these units as strengthening for during the peaks. The issue for West Yorkshire services then becomes crew traction knowledge, as all staff will no longer sign 321/322s once they've gone off lease.
 

IanXC

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I suppose there is a possibility that in breaking the current cycle of 4 car diagrams, to add 3 and 6 car working, there might be the opportunity to take up the alternate hours semi fast paths?
 

northwichcat

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I don't think it's been mentioned that 331s will also be running Manchester Airport to Blackpool services. From what I understand the 4 car 331s will be used as 323 replacements. All 3 car sets (whether they are Northern Connect or commuter) will have 204 seats in 2+2 formation and tables. The 4 car sets will have 284 seats so will have around the same number of seats as a 323 but in 2+2 formation instead of 3+2.

Also worth remembering where 333s replace 321s and 322s it will be equivalent to over half a carriage extra due to the 333 carriages being over 3m longer than 321 and 322 carriages. The 333 driving cars will be refurbished to be similar in layout to the SWT 455s.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I don't think it's been mentioned that 331s will also be running Manchester Airport to Blackpool services. From what I understand the 4 car 331s will be used as 323 replacements. All 3 car sets (whether they are Northern Connect or commuter) will have 204 seats in 2+2 formation and tables. The 4 car sets will have 284 seats so will have around the same number of seats as a 323 but in 2+2 formation instead of 3+2.

Also worth remembering where 333s replace 321s and 322s it will be equivalent to over half a carriage extra due to the 333 carriages being over 3m longer than 321 and 322 carriages. The 333 driving cars will be refurbished to be similar in layout to the SWT 455s.

As i understand it 333s will take over all Leeds to Doncaster runs, will any of the stations on that run require platform extension? I assume not, as 333s have occasionally worked those services before. If they were extended though it may allow the busiest peak services to be run with 6 car 331s.
 
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Mordac

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I don't think it's been mentioned that 331s will also be running Manchester Airport to Blackpool services. From what I understand the 4 car 331s will be used as 323 replacements. All 3 car sets (whether they are Northern Connect or commuter) will have 204 seats in 2+2 formation and tables. The 4 car sets will have 284 seats so will have around the same number of seats as a 323 but in 2+2 formation instead of 3+2.

Also worth remembering where 333s replace 321s and 322s it will be equivalent to over half a carriage extra due to the 333 carriages being over 3m longer than 321 and 322 carriages. The 333 driving cars will be refurbished to be similar in layout to the SWT 455s.

Not just to Blackpool, but also to Windermere, both of course contingent on successful and timely electrification.
 

Bantamzen

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As i understand it 333s will take over all Leeds to Doncaster runs, will any of the stations on that run require platform extension? I assume not, as 333s have occasionally worked those services before. If they were extended though it may allow the busiest peak services to be run with 6 car 331s.

I've been on a 333 running to Doncaster, and at least as far as South Elmsall the platforms seem to be long enough. As far as 331s operating in pairs on it, probably unlikely as their primary operation will doubtless be the Aire valley peaks.
 

YorkshireBear

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Is it the Windermere electric services that will go Manchester - Bolton - Wigan - WCML once Lostock - Wigan has been electrified?
 

northwichcat

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Is it the Windermere electric services that will go Manchester - Bolton - Wigan - WCML once Lostock - Wigan has been electrified?

The Northern Connect map doesn't show any connect services using that route: https://be803fe5c416e39d38ae-aa2108...es/maps/2016-07/NorthernConnectMap_July16.pdf

TPE Scottish services will be diverted back via Bolton once it's electrified. A replacement Northern Connect service will operate between Manchester and Preston via Wigan which will extend to Barrow most hours but 2 services per day in each direction will go to Windermere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not just to Blackpool, but also to Windermere, both of course contingent on successful and timely electrification.

DfT sneakily moved Bolton-Wigan and Windemere-Oxenholme electrification from CP5 to CP6 just after they announced the new TPE and Northern franchises: https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/hendy-review-hits-north-west-projects/ So whether the current franchise will operate electric trains on those routes isn't clear.
 
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absolutelymilk

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A replacement Northern Connect service will operate between Manchester and Preston via Wigan which will extend to Barrow most hours but 2 services per day in each direction will go to Windermere.

Presumably this will be every hour?
 
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