Class 345 progress

samuelmorris

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Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but I've had a good long search and can't really find much on it.

With introduction of the Class 700 and 800 under 2 years away there are already examples of the classes in the country undergoing testing. I realise the 700s are due in service earlier, and the 800s have a bit more to test, but it seems like it's getting fairly late in the day without a peep about the first 345 unit being prepared. Does anyone have any info on when the first signs of the first unit are likely to show up? 20 months from their entry into service it seems remarkably quiet regarding this class!
 
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61653 HTAFC

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Hasn't Litchurch Lane been rather busy with finishing off the S-Stock and 378 extra car orders? I imagine they'll be cracking on with the Crossrail order once those jobs are done, though there's probably a fair bit of preparation (jigs etc.) already taking place behind the scenes.
 

158722

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Hasn't Litchurch Lane been rather busy with finishing off the S-Stock and 378 extra car orders? I imagine they'll be cracking on with the Crossrail order once those jobs are done, though there's probably a fair bit of preparation (jigs etc.) already taking place behind the scenes.
The extra 378 cars must just be about done - notes elsewhere that most of the outstanding ones are ready and stored at Derby until required by LOROL, as there is not sufficient stabling space for all sets to go to 5-cars at present.

The first unit of the 27 Southern/Gatwick Express 387/2s is almost ready, to be followed by the extra 8x units for Great Western. Presumably the 345 build prep will be underway, ready to start in full once the 387 orders have been completed next year.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but I've had a good long search and can't really find much on it.

With introduction of the Class 700 and 800 under 2 years away there are already examples of the classes in the country undergoing testing. I realise the 700s are due in service earlier, and the 800s have a bit more to test, but it seems like it's getting fairly late in the day without a peep about the first 345 unit being prepared. Does anyone have any info on when the first signs of the first unit are likely to show up? 20 months from their entry into service it seems remarkably quiet regarding this class!
They've not yet finished (as in they've only just started) building the new assembly buildings where these units will be built/assembled and tested. The building itself is due for completion in 'winter 2016' (yes, beware of seasonal timeframes) and it's being built by Balfour Beatty (yes, also beware of BB).

I'm led to believe the new building is only needed for full scale production and that the 'pre-production' unit(s) will come from the existing facility before spending some time at Old Dalby, which has a nice mix of the OLE types the unit will encounter in daily use (Series 1, ROC and legacy)
 

hwl

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And lots of 4car Aventra units to build for London Overground too (Class 710?)
 

61653 HTAFC

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AIUI the plan was to introduce the 345s to Liverpool Street suburban services prior to the Crossrail core being opened. If they're a bit late, those services can continue with the current stock so there's no major rush. With electrification being late/cancelled everywhere there's no knock-ons caused by the 315s etc being released late either.
 

Class377/5

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The first 345 is due in service in May 2017. First unit should be completed next year with mainline testing starting late 2016 at the eariest.

IEP is different as initial units are being built in Japan then shipped over. In fact the factory that going to build most of the fleet has only just been completed.

The 700 order is twice the size of the 345 (1140 carriages vs 594) with a time frame similar to Crossrail's, hence Siemens starting asap (first build parts began before contract was signed off).

The three builds are very different and you can't always compare the builds due to this.

Oh and the first 700 in service is less tan a year away not two.
 
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swt_passenger

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As you say, and the 345 is probably not as much of a step change from the stuff Bombardier is already building, so realistically it will just take its turn after the next batches of 387s and then the LO order.

No need to worry yet.
 

321over360

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Im sure production will be started soon though with the first due into service still 2 years away on the GEML, they have time to finish off the existing orders then make a start on the 345s, just a shame they don't start them sooner so they can get bedded in before the full route is operating, I mean, a few initial issues wont be any issue to GEML users given that line is dogged with faulty rolling stock anyway
 

fgwrich

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Knowing Bombardier, that's how they'll come back to the factory ;)
:lol:

With or without the buttons attached?

In all seriousness though, I wonder which layout would work better for the future with further passenger increases due - That of the Siemens Desiro City for Thameslink, The 345 of CrossRail with it's 3 doors or Alstom's rather cleverly designed approach on it's X-Tropolis mock up (2 doors per side but together with full interconnecting corridors per coach/train).

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/alstom-unveils-xtrapolis-uk.html
 

D365

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:lol:

With or without the buttons attached?
Looking like that bodyshell again I mean, once our good punters of the east have stripped them down :D

In all seriousness though, I wonder which layout would work better for the future with further passenger increases due - That of the Siemens Desiro City for Thameslink, The 345 of CrossRail with it's 3 doors or Alstom's rather cleverly designed approach on it's X-Tropolis mock up (2 doors per side but together with full interconnecting corridors per coach/train).
All the types you've listed have full-width gangways, as pioneered in the Class 378. The Class 345 Aventra specifically has three sets of doors per coach side because carriage length has been increased to 23m, hence the order being reduced to 9-car trains. The Aventra for London Overground (Class 710?) reverts to 4x20m coaches and a standard mainline door configuration.
 

47802

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Is not that part of the point of Aventra to be more flexible on door config?

Clearly a 23m Metre train with 3 doors per carriage may be better for some Metro routes that can accommodate a 23m train.
 
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jopsuk

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It does, in part, depend upon how the tender is set up. In the case of Crossrail it was for a 200m train, not a 10x20m train. So the Class 345 gives 27 sets of doors in that 200m train, whilst 10x20m with two doors per carriage would have been 20 doors.
 

Philip Phlopp

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It does, in part, depend upon how the tender is set up. In the case of Crossrail it was for a 200m train, not a 10x20m train. So the Class 345 gives 27 sets of doors in that 200m train, whilst 10x20m with two doors per carriage would have been 20 doors.
54 sets of doors (versus 40 sets of doors for a 10 x 20m train) is going to need some on the ball maintenance, or we'll have these train sets sitting down everywhere with traction interlocking failures.

The upside is with so much running in tunnels, the door mechanisms should hopefully pick up less detritus than a comparable ThamesLink unit, and in winter, water ingress and ice build up around the doors should be less of an issue.
 

3141

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In all seriousness though, I wonder which layout would work better for the future with further passenger increases due - That of the Siemens Desiro City for Thameslink, The 345 of CrossRail with it's 3 doors or Alstom's rather cleverly designed approach on it's X-Tropolis mock up (2 doors per side but together with full interconnecting corridors per coach/train).
For a train that's going to run through central area tunnels and stations which are likely to be very busy, I think the three doors per side of class 345 are absolutely necessary, even though the additional vestibule means that seating capacity will be lower.

A key factor is how far passengers are from the nearest door. With only two doors per side there is more reluctance to pass down inside, because you may get further from the doors and have difficulty getting out at your stop. For those who are further inside the train, including those who are seated, it will also take a few seconds longer to get to the doors when you are leaving.

I shall be very interested to see how well the new Thameslink trains, with only two doors per side, meet the specification for alighting and boarding times.
 

D365

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I shall be very interested to see how well the new Thameslink trains, with only two doors per side, meet the specification for alighting and boarding times.
With doors that are wider than on just about any other mainline train we've seen before, as Geoff Marshall from Londonist so brilliantly demonstrates.
 

Class377/5

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With doors that are wider than on just about any other mainline train we've seen before, as Geoff Marshall from Londonist so brilliantly demonstrates.
The Desiro Cities allow three people to pass without touching. We used two larger bodied people with a third person and didn't touch. Current stock allows two so you've got 50% increase there alone.

However the Crossrail carriage shown off isn't for passengers folks.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/crossrail-trains-take-shape

Body shell is being used to refine the design and the manufacturing techniques needed for the full production of the 594 carriages needed for the 66 Crossrail trains.

e Bednall, Bombardier's Project Director, said:

'This assembled body shell, which has progressed rapidly from a blank piece of paper through to build and test, is the first off the production line for the Crossrail project. It will first go to be tested, to validate the body shell design, before being painted and re-assembled to form the client's cab and saloon mock up.
 

3141

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The Desiro Cities allow three people to pass without touching. We used two larger bodied people with a third person and didn't touch. Current stock allows two so you've got 50% increase there alone.


Well, I certainly hope the door capacity is sufficient, because with 24 trains per hour station dwell times have to be short.

Comparing classes 345 and 700, we have

345: length 205m., 27 doors per side, 2 people per door = 54 passing through.
700: length of 10 coaches (out of 12) 200m., 20 doors per side, 3 people per door = 60 passing through.

So class 700 should have the edge, but that does assume that people will pass through the wider doorways in threes as it’s planned they should.
 

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