Class 345 progress

[samuelmorris]

In winter either will do (other than if trying to board at Stratford eastbound, or Ilford westbound) but in summer, the A/C on 345s is very welcome. I used to specifically go on the 1807 (later 1804) from Liverpool St for that very reason.

 

[cjohnson]

A 345 managed to have a wrong side door opening at Stratford yesterday:

https://twitter.com/craigjjenkins/status/1086375753070137345?s=21

 

[samuelmorris]

The prospect of that occurring on a peak service is terrifying as people would doubtless fall onto the adjacent track. Am I right in thinking there's no location-based device to prevent the driver opening doors on the incorrect side?

 

[Fincra5]

The prospect of that occurring on a peak service is terrifying as people would doubtless fall onto the adjacent track. Am I right in thinking there's no location-based device to prevent the driver opening doors on the incorrect side?

I guess not. They're not everywhere.

 

[87015]

The prospect of that occurring on a peak service is terrifying as people would doubtless fall onto the adjacent track. Am I right in thinking there's no location-based device to prevent the driver opening doors on the incorrect side?

The system can be overriden manually.

 

[samuelmorris]

Presumably in this case though, the doors will still have had to be manually released by someone? Granted, it's not always going to be the case that they look to see what's the other side of the door when it's dark before pressing the button, but I'm going to assume this wasn't an 'all doors opened' command but the usual door release, in which case it's still serious but not quite as much so - this really goes to show why door open commands aren't accepted if the button has been depressed since before the release was given.

 

[rebmcr]

this really goes to show why door open commands aren't accepted if the button has been depressed since before the release was given.

On National Rail this is correct, but it's not universal. The DLR stock allows one to hold the button throughout the release, and the M5000's on Manchester Metrolink allow one to 'queue' a door opening pending the next release.

 

[samuelmorris]

On National Rail this is correct, but it's not universal. The DLR stock allows one to hold the button throughout the release, and the M5000's on Manchester Metrolink allow one to 'queue' a door opening pending the next release.

Indeed, but it is at least the case on 345s. It annoys people no end, but this is a good example of why it's still the right approach.

 

[theageofthetra]

Regarding the wrongside door release. Is there any way that door which appears in the video clip to have been opened other than someone deliberately pressing the open button? If proved so on cctv download can criminal charges or railway bylaw charges be brought?

 

[tomglazed]

If the doors on the 345 behave in metro style operation (automatic all platformed doors open) then no one would have pushed a button for them open so no one's fault. Even if they behave in typical operation (open if platformed and upon button activation and press) and that door was specifically opened by button press then still technically no passenger is at fault as it should not have been active in the first place.

The fact there is enough light out for them to see it's the wrong side and if indeed someone did proceed to climb out onto the tracks is potentially another discussion. Introduce the fact any person who is visually impaired could have been seriously hurt if alone at that door so glad all serious scenarios were avoided.

 

[samuelmorris]

If the doors on the 345 behave in metro style operation (automatic all platformed doors open) then no one would have pushed a button for them open so no one's fault. Even if they behave in typical operation (open if platformed and upon button activation and press) and that door was specifically opened by button press then still technically no passenger is at fault as it should not have been active in the first place.

The fact there is enough light out for them to see it's the wrong side and if indeed someone did proceed to climb out onto the tracks is potentially another discussion. Introduce the fact any person who is visually impaired could have been seriously hurt if alone at that door so glad all serious scenarios were avoided.

Given the fact that there is no hard and fast rule about which side of the train doors open on and indeed it is different ways round at some stations on that section to others (RHS for Stratford and Gidea Park, LHS for pretty much all the others, either at Shenfield and Liverpool St due to them being the termini) it's entirely reasonable for a passenger to wait at the usual door, see it not open, think "oh, it's the other side" and walk across then press the bright green button before then looking at what's out there. You'd never consider that this sort of incident could happen and if the train was any more than basically empty (which it looks like this one was, fortunately) you wouldn't necessarily see anything outside anyway. I'm not suggesting people would actually try and leave the train without looking, but regardless of how it came about, any passenger opening a door on the wrong side would be blameless here.

 

[Via Bank]

Regarding the wrongside door release. Is there any way that door which appears in the video clip to have been opened other than someone deliberately pressing the open button? If proved so on cctv download can criminal charges or railway bylaw charges be brought?

I’m pretty sure any such charge would be laughed out of court.

If you don’t want punters to open the doors on the wrong side, don’t release them (triggering lights and a sounder inviting them to be opened) on the wrong side.

 

[Meerkat]

I’m pretty sure any such charge would be laughed out of court.

If you don’t want punters to open the doors on the wrong side, don’t release them (triggering lights and a sounder inviting them to be opened) on the wrong side.

I thought the post was asking whether it was possible someone had opened the door without using the buttons - ie forced it. Seems unlikely though

 

[jellybaby]

this really goes to show why door open commands aren't accepted if the button has been depressed since before the release was given

The doors on Great Northern 313s open if the button was pressed and held long before the train reached the platform.

 

[Intellectual98]

The system can be overriden manually.

There isn't a system on the 345s to prevent wrong side door release except within the core. Whilst it's possible it was a software glitch more than likely it was just a case of the driver opening the wrong side. Stratford is high risk for this because of the right-hand side doors on platform 8.

 

[The_Train]

Just noticed that the Crewe-Rugby path used for mileage accumulation of the 345s has disappeared from RTT. Does this mean all mileage accumulation is complete and I'm going have to head to the big city to see the rest of the fleet?

 

[theking]

There isn't a system on the 345s to prevent wrong side door release except within the core. Whilst it's possible it was a software glitch more than likely it was just a case of the driver opening the wrong side. Stratford is high risk for this because of the right-hand side doors on platform 8.

Surely drivers will have nothing to do with door release in the core as it will be automatic via the signalling system.

 

[samuelmorris]

Is it my imagination or has the volume of the internal door sounders been adjusted? The volume seems much more reasonable now. (Aboard 005)

 

[Intellectual98]

Surely drivers will have nothing to do with door release in the core as it will be automatic via the signalling system.

Drivers will be in control of releasing the doors in certain driving modes. In some modes there is supervision to prevent wrong side door releases. There are rumours that the 9 car units will have an update that will enable the function outside of the core, this may well be accelerated after the publicity from this incident (by no means the first wrong side door release, but problematic due to the 5 minutes they were left open)

EDIT: Stratford platform 8, where this happened, will have door supervision as it will be included within the CBTC signalling in the core, but this will only apply to 9 car units as the 7 car units are missing the ETCS and CBTC computers needed.

 

[iphone76]

Is it my imagination or has the volume of the internal door sounders been adjusted? The volume seems much more reasonable now. (Aboard 005)

No it isn't your imagination. I thought the same this morning travelling on the 04.44 from Shenfield this morning. Much more reasonable. I didn't catch the unit number.

 

[samuelmorris]

Drivers will be in control of releasing the doors in certain driving modes. In some modes there is supervision to prevent wrong side door releases. There are rumours that the 9 car units will have an update that will enable the function outside of the core, this may well be accelerated after the publicity from this incident (by no means the first wrong side door release, but problematic due to the 5 minutes they were left open)

EDIT: Stratford platform 8, where this happened, will have door supervision as it will be included within the CBTC signalling in the core, but this will only apply to 9 car units as the 7 car units are missing the ETCS and CBTC computers needed.

So the ETCS stuff isn't even fitted to the 7-car units then? (Presumably to avoid it conflicting and since it won't be updated each time the system is patched in light of core section testing). Interesting, I didn't know that.

How is the scheme to be operated away from CBTC, GPS like they use for ASDO?

 

[hwl]

So the ETCS stuff isn't even fitted to the 7-car units then? (Presumably to avoid it conflicting and since it won't be updated each time the system is patched in light of core section testing). Interesting, I didn't know that.

How is the scheme to be operated away from CBTC, GPS like they use for ASDO?

The [RSSB] standard (yes there is one now!) approach is now Eurobalises (first rolled out on the 700s for SDO /CSDE). The original Bombardier systems used GPS and Southern soon added custom RFID balises (as did SWR for 458s etc.) [Tracklink2/3]

 

[samuelmorris]

Fair enough - can see that eventually becoming mandated nationally then, we don't want too many more incidents like this.

 

[hwl]

Fair enough - can see that eventually becoming mandated nationally then, we don't want too many more incidents like this.

The standard has only been around a few years and it will be very easy (and cheap) to roll out with ETCS.
These incidents aren't new, Balham is a favourite location for them (with lots of signage...)

 

[Intellectual98]

So the ETCS stuff isn't even fitted to the 7-car units then? (Presumably to avoid it conflicting and since it won't be updated each time the system is patched in light of core section testing). Interesting, I didn't know that.

How is the scheme to be operated away from CBTC, GPS like they use for ASDO?

From what our training suggested then no, not fitted. The platform extensions for 9 cars have been ready for some time on the west, but they still aren't using them.
From what I gather that is due to software issues requiring constant resets of the ETCS computers, which takes a long time. Because ETCS is such an integral part of the 9 cars it would affect train reliability even on colour light signals with TPWS.

As side note, anyone know why the 345s have been partially withdrawn on the east? Is it because of the wrong side door release investigation or something else. They have been substituting them with 315s on a lot of diagrams the last few days.

 

[samuelmorris]

I wasn't sure if any had been withdrawn, there looks about the usual number in the depot during the peak (about 3-4 unused), but admittedly every service I've used recently has been 315-operated. This afternoon I waited for the subsequent 345 service to make use of the longitudinal trio at a vehicle end to carry heavy stuff back from a client, awkward to do on a 315.

 

[Intellectual98]

Peak times they have to use the 345s, there's just not enough 315s left to run a full service. But weekends and off peak it seems there are less 345s than usual. Sunday's are usually almost all 345 but this week there was just 1 that I saw running.

Seems less a full withdrawal, more like they are just avoiding them where possible.

Also it seems the 345 that is kept as a standby at bow junction has been cancelled a lot recently.

 

[samuelmorris]

At 20,000 MTIN for 315s vs 5000 for 345s (and a much lower MAA even than that), it's not hard to see why. To keep punctuality up, TfL will want to defer all-345 operation as long as they can possibly get away with. I still routinely see 3 people in the cab of 345 services, that can't be cheap either.

 

[Intellectual98]

At 20,000 MTIN for 315s vs 5000 for 345s (and a much lower MAA even than that), it's not hard to see why. To keep punctuality up, TfL will want to defer all-345 operation as long as they can possibly get away with. I still routinely see 3 people in the cab of 345 services, that can't be cheap either.

3 people will certainly be an instructor and 2 trainees. They will be driving if the service is a 345 or a 315.
The bombardier tech has to be in the rear cab, and he is employed to be available even when the train is sitting in the depot incase the train is needed for service.
Whilst I understand that the 315s are more reliable, that doesn't explain why they would be cancelling the standby train that doesn't count towards the reliability metrics.

 

[700007]

The 345 fleet has been partially stood down to allow ongoing software upgrades to the fleet to my understanding. There is not enough 315s to cover all 345s during the peak but this has been the case for a good week now.