Class 360 Future - ideas, suggestions, rumours

[J@ke]

Hi, Does anyone have info where the class 360s are going from Greater Anglia and Heathrow Connect?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think anyone knows yet, but one thing is for sure - they will not be scrapped.

 

[HLE]

I voted No - yes it would be a micro fleet to maintain and operate but it is already?

 

[dgl]

The only thing to remember that whilst in some ways it is a micro fleet, they are essentially 4/350's without unit end gangways and so should have very little differences to them.

 

[Wivenswold]

I voted "yes", they're a fantastic class and with a little TLC on the interiors, someone will be getting a small fleet of superb trains.

4 car consists for the London to Colchester corridor are already too small for most daytime trains, longer ones are needed now. But there's also 2 huge housing developments planned around Colchester which will put further pressure on the line. Even in a 12 car consist the 360s only seat about 800 versus 1,100 for a 10 car Aventra so, yes, as much as I love them they need to be retired off to a more sedate part of the network.

 

[43096]

Pointless poll. Months after it is announced they are being replaced we get a poll asking if they need replacement!

 

[cjmillsnun]

They have a bright future. Just not with GA. Not worth a poll to decide that.

As a unit they are standard Desiro UK EMUs, with the main difference being the lack of corridor connections.

As for where they'll end up, who knows. Although they'll fit in well with an operator who uses 350s.

 

[AlanFry1]

Could they operate on the west Anglia lines?

 

[Buggleskelly]

They (GA 360's) should fit right in with any services run by FirstGroup as they still have their base livery colours, inside and out. They're still the best trains on the GEML, still got many years left in them I reckon.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder if Alliance Rail will start rambling on about another ambitious and unnecessary project that won’t happen again, using the 360s?

To be honest though, what with 26 of them, some being 5 coaches, they probably wouldn’t have too much trouble cascading somewhere else; I mean - 26 isn’t exactly a microfleet, is it?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I voted "yes", they're a fantastic class and with a little TLC on the interiors, someone will be getting a small fleet of superb trains.

4 car consists for the London to Colchester corridor are already too small for most daytime trains, longer ones are needed now. But there's also 2 huge housing developments planned around Colchester which will put further pressure on the line. Even in a 12 car consist the 360s only seat about 800 versus 1,100 for a 10 car Aventra so, yes, as much as I love them they need to be retired off to a more sedate part of the network.

The thing is on capacity what we expect to see is
4 car 360s (80m) to become 5 car Aventras (120m)
8 car 360s (160m) to become mostly 5 car Aventras (120m)
12 car 360s (240m) to become 10 car Aventras (240m)

My worry is more about the current 8 car diagrams. Replacing the 4 car 360s with the 5 car Aventra units makes sense as does replacing the 12 cars with a 10 car Aventra.

I frequently travel on an 8 car 360s that are standing throughout and without a change to the timetable and stopping patterns people may get left behind because whilst the 5 car Aventra will have 16 more seats, it will lose a large amount of standing space.

If you refurbished the 360s and took the first class out of them all you'd have an option between the capacity of a 5 car and 10 car Aventra that could also operate easily at stations that cannot take a 10 car Aventra because of train length. They will have nowhere near enough units to double up 5 car units bearing in mind the 10 cars will pretty much all be used on replacing 12 cars.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Could they operate on the west Anglia lines?

West Anglia is getting a whole new fleet as well, it's a full fleet replacement.

They (GA 360's) should fit right in with any services run by FirstGroup as they still have their base livery colours, inside and out. They're still the best trains on the GEML, still got many years left in them I reckon.

They've recently had new black/grey carpet in the door area and also had the seats re trimmed with this. The carpet in the seating area however remains purple and everything else.

 

[DanNCL]

I personally think that Northern should use them; though in reality we know that unfortunately that's unlikely to happen

 

[dk1]

Could they operate on the west Anglia lines?

As said that would be completely pointless.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The thing is on capacity what we expect to see is
4 car 360s (80m) to become 5 car Aventras (120m)
8 car 360s (160m) to become mostly 5 car Aventras (120m)
12 car 360s (240m) to become 10 car Aventras (240m)

My worry is more about the current 8 car diagrams. Replacing the 4 car 360s with the 5 car Aventra units makes sense as does replacing the 12 cars with a 10 car Aventra.

I frequently travel on an 8 car 360s that are standing throughout and without a change to the timetable and stopping patterns people may get left behind because whilst the 5 car Aventra will have 16 more seats, it will lose a large amount of standing space.

If you refurbished the 360s and took the first class out of them all you'd have an option between the capacity of a 5 car and 10 car Aventra that could also operate easily at stations that cannot take a 10 car Aventra because of train length. They will have nowhere near enough units to double up 5 car units bearing in mind the 10 cars will pretty much all be used on replacing 12 cars.

Is that confirmed as the plan? Is it not 10 cars replaces 8 cars

 

[Bletchleyite]

I personally think that Northern should use them; though in reality we know that unfortunately that's unlikely to happen

Once the SE TOCs have all sorted their shop out I would expect Northern to see some newer EMUs with some 319s binned.

 

[Alfie1014]

They have a bright future. Just not with GA. Not worth a poll to decide that.

As a unit they are standard Desiro UK EMUs, with the main difference being the lack of corridor connections.

As for where they'll end up, who knows. Although they'll fit in well with an operator who uses 350s.

Well soon the only operator using them will be the new LM franchisee and they after getting TPEs 350/4s will be loosing the 350/2s and gaining new build so they'd have no need for 360s. OK Heathrow Connect have 5 x 5 car but once Crossrail take over these services they'll have no home either.

 

[Alfie1014]

Is that confirmed as the plan? Is it not 10 cars replaces 8 cars

The devil will be in the detail until we see the full timetable and formations we can but speculate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well soon the only operator using them will be the new LM franchisee and they after getting TPEs 350/4s will be loosing the 350/2s and gaining new build so they'd have no need for 360s. OK Heathrow Connect have 5 x 5 car but once Crossrail take over these services they'll have no home either.

Erm, SWR have a load of 450s and 444s as well.

The 350/2s will similarly not be scrapped. Some other TOC will I reckon take the lot on (350/2 plus 360 and 707), but I would expect nearly all the 1980/90s ex-BR EMUs to be scrapped. A conversion of the 350/2s and 360s to third rail may well be an option to remove more ex-BR stock like Networkers, or we might see them go to Northern and all non-769ed 319s and all 323s (which despite their good order are getting on a bit now) scrapped.

With a decent leasing deal another sensible option may be to move 350/1s to 8-car WLL duties and have "wmtrains" take /2s reseated to 2+2 instead. With high demand on the WLL you could simply swap the seats over, making /1s 3+2 and /2s 2+2. The ownership issues could complicate it, but in the end they will see sense rather than scrap essentially brand new EMUs.

 

[JonathanH]

The door mechanism is too slow to see them replacing Networkers.

It is not at all impossible that they won't find further use. No one is obliged to use them. If the leading cost is unattractive or they aren't suitable for any other route, they are surplus to requirements.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the cost is unattractive, the lessor won't leave them in sidings, they will reduce it.

I suspect "wmtrains" called their bluff on it, TBH, hence the Aventras.

 

[whhistle]

It's a shame the BHM - Stanstead isn't electrified all the way.
The 4-car units would be welcomed to ease overcrowiding on the peaks around Leicester / Birmingham and would be a great fit for that little route.

Are the 8 and 12 coach trains just 4-cars coupled or are they fixed formations?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Is that confirmed as the plan? Is it not 10 cars replaces 8 cars

To achieve that, you would have to make scathing timetable cuts as there will not be enough units to operate anywhere near the current timetable if you operate all of the current 8 cars as 10 cars.

In communication, Greater Anglia have had no problem in saying that 4 car services will become 5 car and have a substantial increase in capacity, and the 12 car services that will become 10 car will have a substantial increase in capacity whilst all current 8 car services will have an increase in SEATING. The change of wording from capacity to seating is a very big clue.

As per the GA thread

Looking at the numbers (I am intertwining the Stadler units from Norwich & Stansted services deliberately as with as few units as they've ordered it's likely to be common that at least one of the diagrams will be running as a 720 all day, even excluding the third Norwich service)

58x Class 317 + 104x Class 321 + 21x Class 360 + 30x Class 379 + 15x LHCS gives us (213x4x20) + (15x9x23) = 20145m total vehicle length.
89x Class 720/5 + 22x Class 720/1 + 20x Class 745 gives us (89x5x24) + (22x10x24) + (20x12x20) = 20760m total vehicle length.

So that's 615m extra vehicle length, or by the current 20m vehicle length, the equivalent to roughly 30 extra vehicles, so 7 1/2 units.

From those extra 7 1/2 units we have to subtract the extra Norwich diagram which would need at least 5 units worth. Since the diagrams can be no smaller than one 5-car 720, which are 50% longer than existing units, that's the equivalent of 7 1/2 units.
As far as I can tell there is nothing left to expand any existing services. Anything that's an 8-car at peak times, can only get smaller. Turning it into a 10-car 720 is the equivalent of turning it into a 12-car formation today, which would require an extra unit they haven't got.

This says nothing about the extra 720s they will need to get the fleet availability requirement figure below 100% for the 745s. In practice, as far as I can tell they can only really operate the same number of services with the same length trains as today, and with a higher unit availability requirement - that of course should be doable given the common fleet, but to push it any higher would be running c2c-like levels of availability requirement, where so much as one failed unit means a short-formation (which remember, is now 5-cars vice 10 as a best case) or cancellation.

 

[edwin_m]

Once the SE TOCs have all sorted their shop out I would expect Northern to see some newer EMUs with some 319s binned.

I think that's extremely unlikely, as Northern will have entered into a lease contract with Porterbrook for 319s until the end of the franchise. This is a legal contract between two companies and if its terms are breached by either Northern (not paying for the trains) or Porterbrook (not supplying them) then that party will be in court. The only circumstances I can think of where Porterbrook might release them from that contract are:

• If Northern wanted to lease something more modern and expensive from Porterbrook, this increasing Porterbrook's total income (and Northern's costs). The 360s are owned by Angel and it's next to impossible that Porterbrook would voluntarily give up their income in favour of a competitor.
• If Porterbrook had someone else who wanted to hire the 319s and would pay more for them, and Northern was willing to let them go. The only way 319s have a unique selling point is if they are converted into 769s, and there's no sign that the demand for them will mop up the currently off-lease 319s let alone those already running in electric mode for Northern.
• If the 319s are so unreliable that they fail to meet any availability criteria that may exist in the lease. Even if these clauses exist, the 319s now seem tolerably reliable so it's unlikely they would be invoked.

It's remotely possible that there is a break clause in the contract, which would allow either party to terminate it at a specific time, but if so Porterbrook would most likely charge a risk premium. As Northern can deliver their franchise commitments with 319s there is no real upside for them in agreeing to this on the off-chance something else will come along whose benefits justify the cost and hassle of changing fleets.

Probably the only applicable situation would be if Northern got some external funding to increase its electric services. If they are additional then the existing contract would not be broken and the 319s would not be "binned". Even then, unless the service uplift was improbably large, Northern would most likely go for more 319s instead of a microfleet of something else.

 

[mallard]

Is there any particular reason why the 360s can't have 350-style cab ends fitted? That would increase their flexibility and appeal somewhat.

I could imagine them finding a home on the MML, operating services to Corby and the mooted "Luton Express" (do the HC 360s have the extra luggage capacity that would be expected for an airport service?), but time will tell...

It does highlight the government's stupidity at cancelling modernisation programmes just as a glut of electric stock (both older stock suitable for life extension and newer stock) is becoming available.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are the 8 and 12 coach trains just 4-cars coupled or are they fixed formations?

The 360s with Greater Anglia are in 4-car formation and are coupled together to make longer trains. The 360s with Heathrow Connect are in 5-car formation.

 

[Domh245]

Is there any particular reason why the 360s can't have 350-style cab ends fitted? That would increase their flexibility and appeal somewhat.

Beyond the usual aspect of cost, the fact that it would be a complete rebuild of the front end would likely require re-certification, and they wouldn't necessarily be compliant with the latest crashworthiness standards

 

[F Great Eastern]

The cab would have to replaced as well since in the 360 it goes almost fully across the whole front, unlike the 350s which only go half way across.

360

350

 

[JonathanH]

I could imagine them finding a home on the MML, operating services to Corby and the mooted "Luton Express" (do the HC 360s have the extra luggage capacity that would be expected for an airport service?), but time will tell...

Luton Express? What paths exist on the Midland Line for any extra trains on top of 16tph on Thameslink and 6tph for East Midlands? What station is this going to run from?

The HC 360s primary role is as a commuter train for Paddington that happens to go to Heathrow and there are only 5 of them so they would have to be respecified anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the status of the Corby electrification?