Class 360 Future - ideas, suggestions, rumours

[DanNCL]

The first Desiro product to be given design sign-off was the 360, but there was a last moment change of plan about the gangways because of the Health and Safety Executive. It was deemed that the FGE 360s couldn't retain their gangways unless there was more substantial work done to the design of the train, it wasn't as simple as just slightly modifying the cab, so it was decided to build them without gangways since it would have been the quicker option.

The 350s were said to have been built with the 'lessons learnt' from the issues that made the 360s unable to have a cab with a gangway and the body, systems and engineering was built with this in mind and the 350s had no problems at all with getting certified. The updated Desiro build could then take either a full width front end or a front end with a gangway so there should be no reason why the Heathrow Connect units cannot take a gangway cab, since they are of the updated build.

So does this mean that the Heathrow Connect 360s could be converted into 350s, but the GA ones can't?

 

[Marklund]

How compatible are 360s with 350s?
It wouldn't imaging it would be as easy as making semi-permanent 8 car sets swapping 350s end cars with 360s, although what advantage would it bring?
Not much, and what would the issue with running sets that aren't gangwayed anyway? Other stock has done it for years.

The 360s aren't really a microfleet, although it would make sense going to an operator of similar stock.

At the end of the day, it's money that talks, and what the ROSCOs can get for them. Who knows, they might end up abroad.

 

[F Great Eastern]

So does this mean that the Heathrow Connect 360s could be converted into 350s, but the GA ones can't?

It's believed that both can be done, but the GA ones would require more in-depth and expensive work.

The 360/1's were designed with either a non gangway or the initial gangway cab in mind
The 360/2's were designed with either an updated non gangway or the new gangway cab in mind.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It is unknown how compatible they are as they haven’t run coupled together. However the intermediate cars are the same so making them work together is not beyond the realms of possibility

 

[F Great Eastern]

It is unknown how compatible they are as they haven’t run coupled together. However the intermediate cars are the same so making them work together is not beyond the realms of possibility

They should be able to couple no problem.

However bear in mind the first batch of 350s were originally 450s.

The second batch of 360s were originally 350s, but I don't know if they were also 450s before that.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Well considering that they'll be homeless soon, it would be a better sales pitch if they were fitted with gangways.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well considering that they'll be homeless soon, it would be a better sales pitch if they were fitted with gangways.

It depends really how expensive it is, The 360/2s would have been built from the updated design with the updated modular driving car so changing the cabs on them wouldn't be such an issue.

The problem with the 360/1s is they were built with the initial design with the initial modular driving car that was built for a gangway less design, or a gangway design that was rejected on health and safety grounds.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Would still be worth it IMO.

 

[CosherB]

Would still be worth it IMO.

Worth it? I’d like to see your financial analysis to back up that assertion.

 

[Marklund]

Would still be worth it IMO.

Mid-life units getting expensive new cabs that wouldn't bring in additional revenue?
Doubt it would be worth it.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Probably won't make sense to build new cabs for the sake of five units on the /2 fleet unless you are going to modify the driving car and fit a new cab /1 fleet as well, and the later might be the deciding factor in not doing.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Worth it? I’d like to see your financial analysis to back up that assertion.

"..worth it IMO."

 

[jayah]

I think you need to go somewhere like India if you think UK 3+2 seating is harsh.

To be fair I don't think they are charging the same per mile.

 

[jayah]

No idea, but it's something the Airport have been pushing for and the EM franchise consultation document includes questions relating to improving services to/from Luton Airport Parkway. Of course, the result could be that a "Luton Express" type service is combined with the Corby service, similar to how some Gatwick Express services continue through to Brighton.

Its like 5min quicker on EMT than TL and TL goes to 5 other stations in Central London. They would do far better sorting out that useless bus link and the terrible traffic jams caused by charging for dropping people off.

 

[Rob F]

Its like 5min quicker on EMT than TL and TL goes to 5 other stations in Central London. They would do far better sorting out that useless bus link and the terrible traffic jams caused by charging for dropping people off.

What is 'like 5 min'? Is it 6 minutes or 4 minutes or somewhere in between?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair I don't think they are charging the same per mile.

To many of the passengers it's probably quite a bit *more* in real terms.

 

[jayah]

What is 'like 5 min'? Is it 6 minutes or 4 minutes or somewhere in between?

Like it says on RealtimeTrains or any one of a dozen websites.
Like most travellers I can be bothered with pointless minutiae and the difference is too small to be noticeable. The direct access to the rest of central London is many times more important.

 

[dp21]

Nobody knows for sure what's happening to them yet. There are industry murmurs surrounding the word shoe but there is no confirmation yet.

 

[class387]

Probably won't make sense to build new cabs for the sake of five units on the /2 fleet unless you are going to modify the driving car and fit a new cab /1 fleet as well, and the later might be the deciding factor in not doing.

Would it be allowed to build new cabs given the new crash regulations? I know Electrostar cabs are outlawed - are Desiro cabs the same?

 

[CosherB]

Would it be allowed to build new cabs given the new crash regulations? I know Electrostar cabs are outlawed - are Desiro cabs the same?

I would imagine so, yes. New build, current regulations.

 

[edwin_m]

I would imagine so, yes. New build, current regulations.

It's something of a grey area - for example the Class 230 had structural strengthening despite being a rebuild - but in its new incarnation it can be expected to encounter level crossings, unlike on the Underground. If current standards were required then the replacement cab probably wouldn't fit without cutting into the rest of the bodyshell, as more recent trains such as Desiro City have longer noses to accommodate energy absorption.

 

[RealTrains07]

Heard from someone on another thread that apparently some rail magazines are stating that some 360s are gonna be taken on by EMR sometime after they start operating in august in the east midlands on the corby services??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Heard from someone on another thread that apparently some rail magazines are stating that some 360s are gonna be taken on by EMR sometime after they start operating in august in the east midlands on the corby services??

That is mentioned as an option on the Corby thread so quite possibly so.

 

[A0wen]

3+2 would be fine for what is a slightly long outersuburban service. It's not much different to LM to Northampton.

Except not all Northampton services are 3+2 - there are a number which turn up as 2+2.

And the fare structure for the MML north of Bedford absolutely does not justify 3+2 stock - Wellingborough - London is about 20% more expensive than Northampton - London. Mainly because it remained on the Inter City fare structure back in the 80s. It's also why extending Thameslink services up to Corby is a bit of a non-starter.

 

[adamedwards]

Biggest problem for Luton Airport is making it clear the best trains are the Bedford fasts. Friday evening stoppers to Luton are full of people with bags thinking they are on the fast train to the airport. By Hendon the watches are being anxiously looked at.

 

[Kneedown]

That is mentioned as an option on the Corby thread so quite possibly so.

I still think the 379's are a more logical solution. Bombardier built, with Bombardier staff already maintaining 222's, and much as I dislike gangwayed stock, I concede that they make revenue protection and catering easier when running units in multiple, which I believe is the plan. 110mph capable/upgrade possible too?

 

[RealTrains07]

I still think the 379's are a more logical solution. Bombardier built, with Bombardier staff already maintaining 222's, and much as I dislike gangwayed stock, I concede that they make revenue protection and catering easier when running units in multiple, which I believe is the plan. 110mph capable/upgrade possible too?

Isnt impossible to upgrade 360 to 110mph too and add a gangway pending which units they take on

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think the 379's are a more logical solution. Bombardier built, with Bombardier staff already maintaining 222's, and much as I dislike gangwayed stock, I concede that they make revenue protection and catering easier when running units in multiple, which I believe is the plan. 110mph capable/upgrade possible too?

Given that 360s are the same as 350s except the gangway, I'm sure they would just require very minor work to upgrade to 110mph the same.

 

[Aictos]

Biggest problem for Luton Airport is making it clear the best trains are the Bedford fasts. Friday evening stoppers to Luton are full of people with bags thinking they are on the fast train to the airport. By Hendon the watches are being anxiously looked at.

Or even those who want the airport but think they need to change at Luton and get a bus from there when they could have changed at Parkway instead of passing though and ending up having to double back on themselves.

Maybe this is something that the airport and Thameslink could do more to advertise as it doesn’t seem passenger friendly to double back when you could just get off at the station for the airport in the first place.

Best trains for Luton Airport from Central London is to use either the ex Gatwick’s which are non stop between Central London and St Albans or the ex Brighton’s which call same stops plus West Hampstead Thameslink which is 2 minutes slower if that.

As to East Midlands, will the Sheffield services ever have a stop off peak for Luton/Bedford like the slow Nottingham’s?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Isnt impossible to upgrade 360 to 110mph too and add a gangway pending which units they take on

It's been reported on other threads that the GA 360's have the old style cab that requires hacking off, making the addition of gangways a costly task.