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Class 365 future

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Hadders

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I believe they have foot plates that make then out of gauge for certain part of the network

When they go to ilford these have to be removed

It not just 365's, the class 165 means work in the West Country is being done before the cascade. I do not now if it just having to change platforms or more major works are required

Ah, I see. I knew the 165s are slightly wider but didn't realise the 365s had similar issues. Hopefully not insurmountable for use elsewhere.

I know I always enjoy the trip more when it's a 365 instead of a 317 or 321.

Me too! There's nothing quite like a ride down the ECML at 100mph on a hot summers day with all the windows open :D

41 class 365s were built. The 16 units that started life on Southeastern had white roofs (rather than grey) and also had space for a pay phone (which I don't think was ever fitted). You can still see this space on an unrefurbished set as there is a sideways facing seat. The 'smiley' front end was added in the early 2000s and is to do with the driver's cab cooling system.

Sadly only 40 class 365s survive, 365526 was written off following the Potters Bar rail crash in 2002.
 

D365

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I believe GTR are planning to hang on to a small number for peak services to Peterborough - at least, that was the plan when the franchise began - see this factsheet: http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/download/10128.3/route-factsheet-2-great-northern-outer-services/

Those plans are essentially obsolete as it's all but confirmed that the 387/1s will end up at GN, which means fewer (if any) 365s will be retained.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of them still end up at GWR, despite the recent announcement of new trains.

I would be very surprised, by removing a subfleet and replacing with a larger common fleet, the maintenance and training overheads can be reduced.
 

edwin_m

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I think the 365s are about the same width as the Turbos but only 20m bodyshell rather than 23m, so in gauging terms they can pretty much go anywhere.

Electromagnetic compatibility issues may arise if they are used on routes they don't already use, particularly where the signalling is older. The traction drives use older technology that runs at lower frequencies than Electrostar, Desiro etc so is more likely to interfere with signalling.

Could they be reduced to three-car units without having to relocate any equipment as is apparently necessary in a 319? Valley Lines a possibility?

Alternatively fit the Hitachi traction package that some of the 465s now have, which should allow third rail operation again, and return them to Souteastern, which runs similar 465s and apparently needs more stock?
 
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ScotGG

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I think the 365s are about the same width as the Turbos but only 20m bodyshell rather than 23m, so in gauging terms they can pretty much go anywhere.

Electromagnetic compatibility issues may arise if they are used on routes they don't already use, particularly where the signalling is older. The traction drives use older technology that runs at lower frequencies than Electrostar, Desiro etc so is more likely to interfere with signalling.

Could they be reduced to three-car units without having to relocate any equipment as is apparently necessary in a 319? Valley Lines a possibility?

Alternatively fit the Hitachi traction package that some of the 465s now have, which should allow third rail operation again, and return them to Souteastern, which runs similar 465s and apparently needs more stock?

But 365s don't have SDO so not great with Southeastern Metro which has the Woolwich Dockyard platform length problem.

A refurb for metro services with SDO fitted would work. However whenever this has been mentioned for 465s its always said not possible.

Even if the 365s go to longer distance SE routes to free up 465s for metro, then the SDO issue, and thus limited 12 car running, is again at the fore.
 
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RobShipway

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If it was not for the length being different for the class 365 carriages to the class 165/166 carriages I would have asked if the carriages could have been added to the 165/166 fleet.

I had also as someone previously mentioned in this thread thought about the class 365 going to Scotland, but there will be enough units there after the AT200's have been built.

The only other places that I wonder if they could go is either to LM for the local Euston services or to do local services around Yorkshire or Liverpool?
 

MatthewRead

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I know I always enjoy the trip more when it's a 365 instead of a 317 or 321.

I am sure the people in the northwest would rather a 365 over a 319.

Yes send them up North and stick the 319s on the GWR so I don't have to go so far to get aride on one of my favourite units:D
 

D365

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If it was not for the length being different for the class 365 carriages to the class 165/166 carriages I would have asked if the carriages could have been added to the 165/166 fleet.

What? The difference in carriage length is the least of your problems.

As for Northern/LM service, the Class 331s and additional 319s will be plenty enough.
 

Philip Phlopp

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I had also as someone previously mentioned in this thread thought about the class 365 going to Scotland, but there will be enough units there after the AT200's have been built.

Scotland (via Abellio ScotRail) also has options for additional AT200 units, in addition to the firm order placed with Hitachi.

Also to note.

MML when wired will happily support 8 or 12 car formation Class 365 units - the OLE is being specified for 3 x BR/BW High Speed pantographs at 110mph or 2 x any TSI compliant pantograph at 125mph and 140mph.
 

Alfie1014

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Scotland (via Abellio ScotRail) also has options for additional AT200 units, in addition to the firm order placed with Hitachi.

Also to note.

MML when wired will happily support 8 or 12 car formation Class 365 units - the OLE is being specified for 3 x BR/BW High Speed pantographs at 110mph or 2 x any TSI compliant pantograph at 125mph and 140mph.

Except by then they will be 25+ years old, not a show stopper but possibly not the best advert for new electrification. WA would be my punt the full fleet of 40 would just about replace the 42 317s on AGA, though we shall just have to wait and see!
 

jon0844

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Did 365s ever work along the WA mainline (back when it was West Anglia Great Northern)?
 

bramling

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Did 365s ever work along the WA mainline (back when it was West Anglia Great Northern)?

No, on AC they have only ever worked King's Cross to Peterborough or Kings Lynn. I think WAGN operated a special one-off trip to York at around the time the last units were commissioned.

If they're going spare, someone should set up an open-access operation for Peterborough to King's Cross, to cater for passengers who don't fancy all the dubious qualities of the class 700s, could be well patronised especially if they actually ran their published timetable (unlike GTR nowadays).
 

Wolfie

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No, on AC they have only ever worked King's Cross to Peterborough or Kings Lynn. I think WAGN operated a special one-off trip to York at around the time the last units were commissioned.

If they're going spare, someone should set up an open-access operation for Peterborough to King's Cross, to cater for passengers who don't fancy all the dubious qualities of the class 700s, could be well patronised especially if they actually ran their published timetable (unlike GTR nowadays).

...and of course that would be guaranteed to be approved, as there are an abundance of available paths on the ECML into Kings Cross and such a plan wouldn't be abstractive in the slightest,.... or perhaps not<D
 

Hadders

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ISTR 365s were commandeered to run an 'emergency service' to the north when the class 91s were temporarily withdrawn in (I think) the late 1990's due to a derailment at Sandy.

We really could do with an LM style operation on the ECML running semi fast services from places from Leeds or York to Kings Cross. WAGN applied for open access paths to run from Doncaster but lost out to Hull Trains. The 365s would be ideal for this type of service, assuming the timetable would work with 100mph stock.
 

edwin_m

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The 365s would be ideal for this type of service, assuming the timetable would work with 100mph stock.

Big assumption there. The WCML (including the Northampton Loop) is four-track all the way to Rugby and most of the way to Crewe, but the ECML isn't even four-track to Peterborough.
 

Hadders

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You wouldn't necessarily need more paths south of Peterborough as you could extend the Peterborough terminators northwards. I've no idea what capacity is like north of Peterborough but EMT 158's seem to 'pootle' along to Grantham at nothing like 125mph. Places like Grantham, Newark and Retford would probably benefit from a more regular service as well.
 

fgwrich

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ISTR 365s were commandeered to run an 'emergency service' to the north when the class 91s were temporarily withdrawn in (I think) the late 1990's due to a derailment at Sandy.

We really could do with an LM style operation on the ECML running semi fast services from places from Leeds or York to Kings Cross. WAGN applied for open access paths to run from Doncaster but lost out to Hull Trains. The 365s would be ideal for this type of service, assuming the timetable would work with 100mph stock.

Actually I rather agree with you on this one, and breaking off for a moment will be sorry if the LM franchise does end up being split up. For lines like the ECML and WCML, it's an operation that rather works out. I could certainly imagine a Doncaster / Poss York & Hull operation to Kings Cross. Unfortunately now likely to never happen as you say with Hull Trains & GC operating some of the paths, while the lower end is covered by GTR.

I don't think the MML is a possibility for these units, If the Corby services were originally due to take some of the 387s - It could now receive at least some of if not all of the 377/5s instead. Northern could be a possibility, but would they be able to work alongside the new EMUs? Sadly the GWML wiring will take that long that a possibility of using them in an electrified Bristol & South Wales Metro (covering the route to Swansea) is unlikely. Could they work in the Valley's if they retain a heavy rail solution?
 

ungreat

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Isn't that simply that they're loaded with the same CIS software?
It is yes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No, on AC they have only ever worked King's Cross to Peterborough or Kings Lynn. I think WAGN operated a special one-off trip to York at around the time the last units were commissioned.

There was a route learning trip too and somewhere I still have a copy of the video.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Actually I rather agree with you on this one, and breaking off for a moment will be sorry if the LM franchise does end up being split up. For lines like the ECML and WCML, it's an operation that rather works out. I could certainly imagine a Doncaster / Poss York & Hull operation to Kings Cross. Unfortunately now likely to never happen as you say with Hull Trains & GC operating some of the paths, while the lower end is covered by GTR.

You'll not get that until something is finally done to solve the gridlock around Digswell (aka Welwyn) viaduct.

The pathing on the ECML works to try and flight suitable trains through the bottleneck as quickly as possible, without holding them up with stopping too many trains too close to the viaduct. If that's solved, a LM type operation on the ECML would be very much achievable, though would probably need to be 110mph (so also OLE dependent if 3 x 4 car formations needed).
 

MatthewRead

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ISTR 365s were commandeered to run an 'emergency service' to the north when the class 91s were temporarily withdrawn in (I think) the late 1990's due to a derailment at Sandy.

We really could do with an LM style operation on the ECML running semi fast services from places from Leeds or York to Kings Cross. WAGN applied for open access paths to run from Doncaster but lost out to Hull Trains. The 365s would be ideal for this type of service, assuming the timetable would work with 100mph stock.
I thought it was WAGN 317s and Northern Spirit 321s. Back in 2000 after the Hatfield derailment.
 

D365

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Do they still have all their internal 3rd rail equipment in place?

This question I believe is answered within the first 15 posts of this thread.

No it isn't, and there's not much "equipment" to remove - all AC-motored EMUs since the Networkers make use of a 750V DC electrical bus.


I thought it was WAGN 317s and Northern Spirit 321s. Back in 2000 after the Hatfield derailment.

I believe that these are two separate incidents.
 

jopsuk

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You wouldn't necessarily need more paths south of Peterborough as you could extend the Peterborough terminators northwards. I've no idea what capacity is like north of Peterborough but EMT 158's seem to 'pootle' along to Grantham at nothing like 125mph. Places like Grantham, Newark and Retford would probably benefit from a more regular service as well.

Once the GN goes Thameslink the half-hourly Peterborough service is going through the core. Off peak only EC services from Peterborough will terminate at Kings Cross- there will be GN peak time services though
 

A0wen

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ISTR 365s were commandeered to run an 'emergency service' to the north when the class 91s were temporarily withdrawn in (I think) the late 1990's due to a derailment at Sandy.

We really could do with an LM style operation on the ECML running semi fast services from places from Leeds or York to Kings Cross. WAGN applied for open access paths to run from Doncaster but lost out to Hull Trains. The 365s would be ideal for this type of service, assuming the timetable would work with 100mph stock.

The big difference between the WCML and ECML is number of and nature of stations between the 'end' of the London commuter services and the main stops on the formerly Inter City services.

On the WCML from Rugby through to Stoke or Crewe, you've got the 6 Trent Valley stations (Atherstone, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, Rugeley TV, Stone) which don't warrant a regular Inter City style service of the frequency the LM service provides.That's in addition to the major stations (Stafford, Stoke, Crewe) In the past you also had Norton Bridge, Barlaston and Wedgwood to consider as well.

The ECML from Peterboro to Doncaster has Grantham, Newark and Retford. That's it. So the need for a 'semi fast' type service is much reduced.
 

swt_passenger

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Do they still have all their internal 3rd rail equipment in place?

As I said in a reply to a similar question of yours in the 319 thread a couple of days ago, there really isn't any "internal third rail equipment" at all.

The pick up shoes are wired with relatively thick cable through massive fuses directly to the DC bus which lies between the transformer/rectifier and the traction converter.
 

edwin_m

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The pick up shoes are wired with relatively thick cable through massive fuses directly to the DC bus which lies between the transformer/rectifier and the traction converter.

Surely there's some kind of contactor as well? I can't imagine it would be acceptable to have the shoegear live when nowhere near the third rail.
 

swt_passenger

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Surely there's some kind of contactor as well? I can't imagine it would be acceptable to have the shoegear live when nowhere near the third rail.

Not usually on older stock. AIUI this is why the shoe gear has a warning notice stating it is permanently live. Even if circuit breakers are fitted they are a fairly insignificant weight compared to the rest of the AC supply side and the traction converters combined.
 
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