Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion

[warwickshire]

Richard Clinnick on Twitter reports that 365518 and 365539 are today's doomed pair, on their way to Newport at the moment. 539 was the last one I used, quite sad really.

14 to go...

I get 13 365508 365532 365538 went December 2021.
365514 365534 and 365539 365518 in January 2022.

 

[millemille]

One thing has puzzled me for a long time, and I think it is the main reason for the early withdrawal of the class 365s. Why was there never a mid life renewal of the traction package, like on the class 465s? I heard more than once that the class 365s ran on Windows 95, but never knew whether it was literally true or just a metaphor for the ancient nature of the electronics/software. Either way, did the lack of a mid life renewal of the traction package make the maintenance task increasingly challenging?

Hitachi undertook the re-tractioning of the 465/0&1's as an entry to market exercise for the UK. The whole exercise was made abnormally easy on the 465's because the OEM of the existing traction equipment, Brush, had no desire to compete against Hitachi and were willing to share all of the original design information which was their IPR, which made Hitachi's integration work a whole lot simpler. Hitachi did the project as a loss leader as well.

In 2010 Hitachi did look at re-tractioning the 365's but because Alstom, as the OEM of the 365 traction equipment, were interested in competing with any other potential suppliers for a new traction package Alstom would not, understandably, provide any design information which was Alstom's IPR to assist a competitor. In 2010 I had left the railway industry but was asked, as a former class 365 fleet support engineer, to got to a meeting with Hitachi to answer some questions they had about 365's. They then proceeded to fire incredibly detailed technical enquiries at me for several hours, none of which I was able to answer in any way other than "I have no idea, the only people who will know that are Alstom".

This killed it dead for Hitachi, and anyone else other than Alstom and there was no appetite to pursue it with Alstom as the cost/benefit wasn't seen to be favourable

And no Windows on the Networkers. They don’t have any form of train computer.

Kind of, but not quite. The traction package has controlling software and the only way this can be accessed/interrogated/updated is via the GEC interface program which runs in windows, specifically windows 95. I recall that when later versions of windows were released the only way the traction interface could be made to work was with a virtual computer running 95 within the newer computer/windows.

 

[Magdalia]

Thanks for all at #782. Very informative and fascinating contribution!

 

[YSTrains]

The 365s were based on the ABB 465s. But are there any differences on external(apart from the smile obviously) and internal looks?

 

[D365]

Kind of, but not quite. The traction package has controlling software and the only way this can be accessed/interrogated/updated is via the GEC interface program which runs in windows, specifically windows 95. I recall that when later versions of windows were released the only way the traction interface could be made to work was with a virtual computer running 95 within the newer computer/windows.

I'll admit that I was being intentionally vague, what I meant is that the 365s don't have any form of TCMS (Train Control and Management Software) as seen on Electrostars and anything newer.

It's always interesting to hear when industries make use of "virtual machines" in order to maintain compatibility with modern day computer system,s.

 

[Roast Veg]

It's always interesting to hear when industries make use of "virtual machines" in order to maintain compatibility with modern day computer system,s.

You might find it interesting, I find it a right royal PITA.

 

[D365]

You might find it interesting, I find it a right royal PITA.

I’ve always enjoyed running Windows 9x VMs. That is until I have to troubleshoot an interface with any external devices

 

[bramling]

The 365s were based on the ABB 465s. But are there any differences on external(apart from the smile obviously) and internal looks?

The most obvious external difference is the 465s have an extra small window at the non-driving vehicle ends - presumably this is simply because these units have seats there, whereas the 365s have luggage racks.

465s have had anti-surf modifications to their front ends, the 365s didn’t get this but did get the “smiley face”. All these mods did detract from the clean lines of the original.

The BREL 465s are nowadays significantly different below the solebar following the retractioning, but when built were similar if not identical to the 365s.

Another minor difference was the Connex BREL Networkers received dot-matrix destination indicators fairly early in life, which IIRC were fitted to the 365, 465/0 and 465/1. The original WAGN 25 didn’t get these, retaining the original LCD displays. WAGN retrofitted the original 25 units a little while after the Connex units moved over. The Connex units were also distinguishable by their white roofs, which again lasted a little while before being changed to grey to match the WAGN units.

 

[YSTrains]

The most obvious external difference is the 465s have an extra small window at the non-driving vehicle ends - presumably this is simply because these units have seats there, whereas the 365s have luggage racks.

465s have had anti-surf modifications to their front ends, the 365s didn’t get this but did get the “smiley face”. All these mods did detract from the clean lines of the original.

The BREL 465s are nowadays significantly different below the solebar following the retractioning, but when built were similar if not identical to the 365s.

Another minor difference was the Connex BREL Networkers received dot-matrix destination indicators fairly early in life, which IIRC were fitted to the 365, 465/0 and 465/1. The original WAGN 25 didn’t get these, retaining the original LCD displays. WAGN retrofitted the original 25 units a little while after the Connex units moved over. The Connex units were also distinguishable by their white roofs, which again lasted a little while before being changed to grey to match the WAGN units.

Thanks for the clear difference.

 

[Razorblades]

I get 13 365508 365532 365538 went December 2021.
365514 365534 and 365539 365518 in January 2022.

I get fifteen left: 365502/4/6/10/2/5/6/20/2/4/5/8/30/6/40.

 

[St. Paddy]

I get fifteen left: 365502/4/6/10/2/5/6/20/2/4/5/8/30/6/40.

515 went for scrap. 525 is the only odd numbered one left

 

[warwickshire]

I get fifteen left: 365502/4/6/10/2/5/6/20/2/4/5/8/30/6/40.

It is 13.
365525 is at bicester mod Gbrf Depot for ertms trials.
Also 365515 is being broken up at booths masboro rotherham yard.
Went for scrap already in middle November 2021. Have it on video going through Stafford middle road.
Also see my post 641.
365515 has gone.

 

[warwickshire]

I get fifteen left: 365502/4/6/10/2/5/6/20/2/4/5/8/30/6/40.

Also I haven't included 365525 in.
Despite at bicester.
I have only done the ones at Doncaster Belmont yard because 13 are still there awaiting the scrap moves. Just because at the momment 13 only are still going to scrap. So its easier to know what's left.
Who knows maybe rail operations group at its bicester base may stay with the 360s..

 

[millemille]

The most obvious external difference is the 465s have an extra small window at the non-driving vehicle ends - presumably this is simply because these units have seats there, whereas the 365s have luggage racks.

465s have had anti-surf modifications to their front ends, the 365s didn’t get this but did get the “smiley face”. All these mods did detract from the clean lines of the original.

The BREL 465s are nowadays significantly different below the solebar following the retractioning, but when built were similar if not identical to the 365s.

Another minor difference was the Connex BREL Networkers received dot-matrix destination indicators fairly early in life, which IIRC were fitted to the 365, 465/0 and 465/1. The original WAGN 25 didn’t get these, retaining the original LCD displays. WAGN retrofitted the original 25 units a little while after the Connex units moved over. The Connex units were also distinguishable by their white roofs, which again lasted a little while before being changed to grey to match the WAGN units.

The bodyshells are substantially different; post Potters Bar (and also after the Blackhorse Drove level crossing collision) it was looked at whether it was possible to use a spare 465 DMOS bodyshell to replace the damaged/written off 365 DMOS's and the structural differences were too significant to overcome.

The underframes are substantially different due to different traction packages and the main transformer plus yaw dampers and the PTOSL having a pantograph well on the roof.

There are/were very few parts, in the whole BoM, interchangeable between the classes.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 12/01
0E25 dep RT Realtime Trains - 012O 1846 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Belmont Down Yard

STP 13/01
5Q76 dep 0514 37800 365502
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0531 Belmont Down Yard to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

 

[brad465]

365502 was one of the 3 units making up the final passenger service, and was one of 2 on my final journey on Sunday 9th May last year (I used 365520 on that particular run).

 

[warwickshire]

365502 was one of the 3 units making up the final passenger service, and was one of 2 on my final journey on Sunday 9th May last year (I used 365520 on that particular run).

Same here week before but mine was 502 and 520 in April and early may. Along with 504 and 534. Then final bash to Peterborough but with 502 and 534 one evening about that time as well
Sad they should have remained on Peterboroughs and kept lner from London to Peterborough free from those local commuters.

 

[warwickshire]

STP 12/01
0E25 dep RT Realtime Trains - 012O 1846 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Belmont Down Yard

STP 13/01
5Q76 dep 0514 37800 365502
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0531 Belmont Down Yard to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

Good morning from goring and Streetly 37800 was with 365502 to Newport Simms Docks scrap move.
365502 now sadly left us.
However 37800 epic sound and throttle on the approach through the valley from pangbourne.

 

[YSTrains]

As of 13 January 2022:
Stored:
504,506,510,512,516,520,522,524,525,528, 530,536,540

Scrapped: 501,502,503,505,507,508,509,511,513,514, 515,517,518,519,521,523,526,527,529,531, 532,533,534,535,537,538,539,541

 

[D365]

365502 was one of the 3 units making up the final passenger service, and was one of 2 on my final journey on Sunday 9th May last year (I used 365520 on that particular run).

Thanks. I was wondering what 520 had been paired with on Saturday 14th 15th (final service).

 

[Dave91131]

Thanks, I was wondering what 520 had been paired with on Saturday 14th (final service).

The final day was Saturday 15th May 2021, the 14th was the Friday.

I don't know about the Friday's events but the Saturday saw 2 pairs work a single Peterborough - King's Cross service before retiring to Hornsey.

The 08xx ex Peterborough was 502+504, and the final working the 09xx ex Peterborough was 520+522.

I chose to do the 08xx from Peterborough to have a quieter ride and sure enough I had the front coach to myself after Biggleswade for what should have been a final blast to London, however an emergency stop from full speed near Welham Green due to signalling irregularities meant I had a bonus "acceleration thrash" one last time.

My own little line in the history records is that I was the final passenger to alight 365502 at the end of its final journey.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 18/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0531 Belmont Down Yard to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

 

[73128]

STP 18/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0531 Belmont Down Yard to Newport Docks (Simsgroup)

Cancelled today owing to a problem with traction equipment (RTT reports).

 

[YSTrains]

Will the final carriage of unit 526 be scrapped too? I don't know why it has been kept out of the public eye for 20 years.

 

[3973EXL]

STP 20/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0531 Belmont Down Yard to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) dep 0514 37800 365540

 

[D365]

Will the final carriage of unit 526 be scrapped too? I don't know why it has been kept out of the public eye for 20 years.

Why would it be of any interest to the public?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Why would it be of any interest to the public?

Same reason any vehicles involved in accidents and incidents are I suppose. Some people have a morbid fascination with such things.

 

[warwickshire]

STP 20/01

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0531 Belmont Down Yard to Newport Docks (Simsgroup) dep 0514 37800 365540

Very good morning confirmed 37800 hauls 365540 through hanwell on this warm sunny morning and full on surround sound. Entertaining hanwell to its full throttle. Pure music at its best.

 

[Fuzzytop]

365524 is to be saved!

Class 365 EMU to be preserved at the East Kent Railway

Eversholt Rail has confirmed that Class 365, No. 365524, is destined for the East Kent Railway.

www.railadvent.co.uk

Eversholt Rail has confirmed that Class 365, No. 365524, is destined for the East Kent Railway.

Thought to be in the best condition of the original fleet of 41 trains, 365524 will be on static display and will become a restaurant, exhibition area, and a major events venue.

The initiative for 365524 came from investor, Howard Johnston.

A Class 365 electric multiple unit with strong connections to Her Majesty The Queen has been granted a place in preservation by its former owner Eversholt Rail.

The East Kent Railway is a four mile long heritage line with trains running from Shepherswell to Eythorne.

“We are delighted to mark The Queen’s forthcoming Platinum Jubilee celebrations by donating 365524 a new career after travelling over a million miles in the 25 years since it entered service. Her Majesty was a frequent passenger aboard Class 365s as part of her journey from London to her winter home at Sandringham in Norfolk.” said Paul Sutherland, Client Services Director at Eversholt Rail.

“Although they only had a short life by railway standards, the Class 365s were universally popular with those who travelled on them regularly, including myself. I was determined to save one from the scrapyard” added Howard Johnston.

Matthew Plews, Managing Director of the EKR said “We are grateful to Eversholt Rail and Howard Johnston for choosing us, and we will look after it well. Some of the Class 365s started their working lives in the South East, so the East Kent Railway is a most appropriate place for the last survivor.”

 

[Magdalia]

365524 is to be saved!

Class 365 EMU to be preserved at the East Kent Railway

Eversholt Rail has confirmed that Class 365, No. 365524, is destined for the East Kent Railway.

www.railadvent.co.uk

“We are delighted to mark The Queen’s forthcoming Platinum Jubilee celebrations by donating 365524 a new career after travelling over a million miles in the 25 years since it entered service. Her Majesty was a frequent passenger aboard Class 365s as part of her journey from London to her winter home at Sandringham in Norfolk.”

I have been able to identify most of the class 365s that Her Majesty travelled on between 2009 and 2017, mainly from newspaper and TV pictures. 365524 is not on the list. But does anyone know when Her Majesty resumed travelling to Sandringham by train, was it 2009 or earlier?