Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion

[skyhigh]

Seeing as the govt owns them no need to pay any charges at all!

And they're not owned by a leasing company, they are owned directly by DfT.

I've been reliably informed that the ownership has transferred back to Eversholt- the terms of the deal were such that if they weren't used within a certain period of time, they went back to the previous owners. That's supported by the fact they've appeared on an Eversholt lease/disposal list. I think it's entirely likely that they've been transferred back in the knowledge that the ROSCO is the expert in storage and disposal of stock, and that 365s won't find a new home

 

[221101 Voyager]

Is this a 365 storage move?

7th April operated by ROG.

Realtime Trains - 533T 1214 Hornsey E.M.U.D. to Crewe South Yard

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Class 466]

Interesting that its down as a drag. All under the wires.
Seems highly unlikely these will see further use unfortunately, absolutely absurd they aren't being sent to Kent to supplement the 465/466 units there.

Hardly obsurd when Southeastern will be withdrawing some 465/466s soon. 707s are providing ample additional capacity.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I've been reliably informed that the ownership has transferred back to Eversholt- the terms of the deal were such that if they weren't used within a certain period of time, they went back to the previous owners. That's supported by the fact they've appeared on an Eversholt lease/disposal list. I think it's entirely likely that they've been transferred back in the knowledge that the ROSCO is the expert in storage and disposal of stock, and that 365s won't find a new home

Are thats interesting and probably not surprising as govt always think the market knows better than professionals

 

[samuelmorris]

Well, I’ve just got a refund on my season ticket, and bought a “runabout” car instead. One more rail user lost thanks to this!

The 365s were certainly the best rolling stock the GN has seen in recent memory, by a very long way.

Whilst this might have been unthinkable a year ago, the current Covid reality does point to it being unlikely they will find other work. I still think it’s not entirely impossible there could be an eleventh-hour GN reprieve, if someone works out a better cascade which manages to offload some older DC stock instead. One would think the leasing company would offer the 365s at virtually zero cost just to avoid storage costs.

Sadly I’d say scrap isn’t an impossibility given the current climate, especially with half the fleet having sat in storage for three years. What a great use of a load of taxpayers money back in the 1990s, the current rolling stock situation is certainly perverse.

I can understand complaint about 700s covering services 365s used to operate, but is the change to a 387 (or who knows maybe also a 379) that much of a problem to justify driving when you wouldn't otherwise? Alright the seats are a bit firm but the travelling experience on 387s has always seemed decent enough.

 

[bramling]

Even if that were possible, tere's still a cost to GTR associated with keeping crews trained on them (drivers and maintenance).

And they're not owned by a leasing company, they are owned directly by DfT.

They are going over to a leasco from July.

I get the point about drivers, however that’s partly what makes me think it’s silly moving them - the drivers are already trained, and we’re not talking about a massive number. Surely better to keep up what already exists?

I can understand complaint about 700s covering services 365s used to operate, but is the change to a 387 (or who knows maybe also a 379) that much of a problem to justify driving when you wouldn't otherwise? Alright the seats are a bit firm but the travelling experience on 387s has always seemed decent enough.

It isn’t just about the 365s. We’re already now seeing timetables where there’s virtually no peak extras. So it seems likely the service is essentially going to be the 4tph ThamesLink, 2tph KX/Cambridge and 2tph KX/Ely/Kings Lynn. On that basis, and with the 365s going, the scales firmly top in favour of the car for a number of reasons.

Apparently, i.e. there's no authoritative source for it.

The source we had on here seemed pretty reliable, to be fair.

I’m sure the 365s *could* go back on DC, just with a massive amount of work, and therefore cost, and associated risk.

A nice provincial electrification scheme would have been the perfect solution! However in the absence of that, when one looks at what older stock there still is, you’re basically talking about the Scottish 318/320, and the Southern 313/455. Beyond that there’s no other AC or DC EMUs of the age where replacement is beckoning, that hasn’t already got something in hand.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Hardly obsurd when Southeastern will be withdrawing some 465/466s soon. 707s are providing ample additional capacity.

Will they? That's news to me and a few others I think you'll find!!
Those 707s are freeing up 377/5 units, and said 377/5 units are going elsewhere to replace older life expired stock.

 

[Ianno87]

They are going over to a leasco from July.

I get the point about drivers, however that’s partly what makes me think it’s silly moving them - the drivers are already trained, and we’re not talking about a massive number. Surely better to keep up what already exists?

But that comes at a non-zero cost. With the gap between revenue and costs as wide as it is at present, it needs to be narrowed from both sides of the equation.

It isn’t just about the 365s. We’re already now seeing timetables where there’s virtually no peak extras. So it seems likely the service is essentially going to be the 4tph ThamesLink, 2tph KX/Cambridge and 2tph KX/Ely/Kings Lynn.

The "peak extras" are to accommodate peak demand that is unlikely to be returning in any great hurry. I would dearly love to be wrong on this, of course. In the meantime, the ongoing cost of providing this capacity is an unnecessary luxury.

 

[bramling]

But that comes at a non-zero cost. With the gap between revenue and costs as wide as it is at present, it needs to be narrowed from both sides of the equation.



The "peak extras" are to accommodate peak demand that is unlikely to be returning in any great hurry. I would dearly love to be wrong on this, of course. In the meantime, the ongoing cost of providing this capacity is an unnecessary luxury.

All I can say is that trimming the timetable down dissuades me from using the railway. Perhaps I’m atypical in this (I’m fortunate that I can just as easily travel to work by car, though it isn’t my preferred choice all things equal). However if others choose likewise then passenger numbers are going to drop further.

The other thing to consider is that there is likely to continue to be some expectation of space for some time to come, I don’t think that’s going to disappear any time soon.

 

[Energy]

Will they? That's news to me and a few others I think you'll find!!
Those 707s are freeing up 377/5 units, and said 377/5 units are going elsewhere to replace older life expired stock.

Do you have a source for the 377/5s moving as that is new to me, from what I have heard it is a mix of capacity improvement and replacement of the worst networkers.

 

[Ianno87]

All I can say is that trimming the timetable down dissuades me from using the railway. Perhaps I’m atypical in this (I’m fortunate that I can just as easily travel to work by car, though it isn’t my preferred choice all things equal). However if others choose likewise then passenger numbers are going to drop further.

The other thing to consider is that there is likely to continue to be some expectation of space for some time to come, I don’t think that’s going to disappear any time soon.

The 4 x 12-car and 2 x 8-car Class 700s per hour from the Stevenage direction, whilst of debatable seat comfort, provide oodles of room and a decent frequency for the time being, especially without the traditional "desk by 9am" rush any more. It's hardly like the trains are busy now.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Do you have a source for the 377/5s moving as that is new to me, from what I have heard it is a mix of capacity improvement and replacement of the worst networkers.

I do, but i am not going to reveal it here or speculate too much further. Careless talk etc. etc.
However, there are plans in the making that will see a lot of cascades going on. All made possible by the fact that there will be less demand (1) on the railway network for al long time to come thanks to Covid. The lack of peak extras is being brought about by the fact driver training has almost stopped for the last 13 months, then there is the increased costs of running the show when nobody has been travelling, and further more the older the train the more expensive the costs. Hence the decision to really start moving stuff about.

(1) Boris says one thing, DfT say another about just how 'normal' things will be after June.

 

[samuelmorris]

All I can say is that trimming the timetable down dissuades me from using the railway. Perhaps I’m atypical in this (I’m fortunate that I can just as easily travel to work by car, though it isn’t my preferred choice all things equal). However if others choose likewise then passenger numbers are going to drop further.

The other thing to consider is that there is likely to continue to be some expectation of space for some time to come, I don’t think that’s going to disappear any time soon.

Fair, no need for further discussion, if it's timetable changes that makes sense (and is beyond the scope of this thread) - I just assumed originally from your post that it was simply the removal of the 365s that prompted the decision. Never mind, carry on

 

[Southern Dvr]

This issue is going to be the big one for the railways to overcome. Not only will they contend with the 'working from home brigade' but they will need to entice people back out of their cars.

The railways are haemorrhaging money with such low turnout, even now the stay local message has been dropped it's instead replaced with 'minimise travel' and from what I've been hearing today ditching 'excess' rolling stock is just the start of what is to come. We've been told today just how expensive E.P Keys are to 'the business' and not to lose them. There is some serious bean counting going on.

 

[Energy]

I do, but i am not going to reveal it here or speculate too much further. Careless talk etc. etc.

Interesting, in this video SE say they are replacing some of their older networkers.

 

[Ianno87]

This issue is going to be the big one for the railways to overcome. Not only will they contend with the 'working from home brigade' but they will need to entice people back out of their cars.

The railways are haemorrhaging money with such low turnout, even now the stay local message has been dropped it's instead replaced with 'minimise travel' and from what I've been hearing today ditching 'excess' rolling stock is just the start of what is to come. We've been told today just how expensive E.P Keys are to 'the business' and not to lose them. There is some serious bean counting going on.

When leisure travel gets going again (which I'm confident it will), then the situation will improve, but at the present time throwing money at rolling stock needed only for pre-Covid extra peak capacity above the "standard hour" is largely flogging something of a dead horse for at least a few years or so.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Interesting, in this video SE say they are replacing some of their older networkers.

won't be the first time that a TOC has said something and then not followed through with it.
things change rapidly at the moment.
look at how the 442 project got the dropped.

 

[JonathanH]

won't be the first time that a TOC has said something and then not followed through with it.
things change rapidly at the moment.
look at how the 442 project got the dropped.

Could it be that the 707 programme and some service cuts free up both the worst Networkers and the 377/5 fleet?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Could it be that the 707 programme and some service cuts free up both the worst Networkers and the 377/5 fleet?

I would say it is unlikely. I'd also point out only 2x 707s have transferred to SET at present, the 701 project being so heavily delayed means that plans are probably being rewritten again!

 

[londonteacher]

I would say it is unlikely. I'd also point out only 2x 707s have transferred to SET at present, the 701 project being so heavily delayed means that plans are probably being rewritten again!

More than two have as has been mentioned on the appropriate thread.

Back to the 365....

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I do, but i am not going to reveal it here or speculate too much further. Careless talk etc. etc.
However, there are plans in the making that will see a lot of cascades going on. All made possible by the fact that there will be less demand (1) on the railway network for al long time to come thanks to Covid. The lack of peak extras is being brought about by the fact driver training has almost stopped for the last 13 months, then there is the increased costs of running the show when nobody has been travelling, and further more the older the train the more expensive the costs. Hence the decision to really start moving stuff about.

If cascades create additional driver training requirements would suggest that's not sensible in current environment. Most important requirement at the moment is to provide a known and stable service that people can rely upon.

 

[Southern Dvr]

If cascades create additional driver training requirements would suggest that's not sensible in current environment. Most important requirement at the moment is to provide a known and stable service that people can rely upon.

You'd like to think that was always the railway's intention!!!

However, sometimes i do wonder about that!!

Driver training is being scaled down as much as possible as its a massive drain on resources, however, there is also a need to cut down on overtime reliance. So there is only one thing to do and that is cut cut cut. Of course, the problem then is that you run out of things to cut.

Things are bad. Very bad.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Unfortunately, the best thing for the 365s would have been a return to Kent but that's not possible without uber cost so I just don't see what future there can be for them.

 

[py_megapixel]

Unfortunately, the best thing for the 365s would have been a return to Kent but that's not possible without uber cost so I just don't see what future there can be for them.

Presumably scrap. They're among the oldest EMUs still in service other than the old Mk3- and PEP-based stock and there is already a surplus of EMUs in this country, so I can't see why Eversholt or anyone else would have a compelling reason to keep them around.

 

[Kite159]

Took the 18:05 this evening and I counted 20 passengers in total in the leading unit (502, which sounded like the motors were isolated at the leading end).

 

[221101 Voyager]

Took the 18:05 this evening and I counted 20 passengers in total in the leading unit (502, which sounded like the motors were isolated at the leading end).

Oh!

I thought 365s weren't in service anymore.

I'm off to London tomorrow while we all have a little bit of freedom to explore, so what diagrams do 365s operate on at the mo?

 

[londonteacher]

Unfortunately, the best thing for the 365s would have been a return to Kent but that's not possible without uber cost so I just don't see what future there can be for them.

The future for them is scrap. There are currently (according to Wikipedia so not the most reliable I know) 23 units off lease. If 365s were needed elsewhere then they would already be in conversion or being used - the 10 that were used by Scotrail in particular.

 

[Hadders]

The 365s operate the 06:36 Peterborough to Kings Cross and 18:05 Kings Cross to Peterborough, on Monday to Friday. There are some limited Sunday workings at the moment due to the Kings Cross work.

As a regular commuter from Stevenage the 365 operated services are my trains of choice, on Thursday last week there were a number of passengers in the leading car, one was recording a video. We both got off at Stevenage and thought he might be a forum member (I asked him and he wasn't).

Dose anyone know what the last day of service is? I suspect it will coincide with the May timetable change but can anyone confirm.

 

[bramling]

The 365s operate the 06:36 Peterborough to Kings Cross and 18:05 Kings Cross to Peterborough, on Monday to Friday. There are some limited Sunday workings at the moment due to the Kings Cross work.

As a regular commuter from Stevenage the 365 operated services are my trains of choice, on Thursday last week there were a number of passengers in the leading car, one was recording a video. We both got off at Stevenage and thought he might be a forum member (I asked him and he wasn't).

Dose anyone know what the last day of service is? I suspect it will coincide with the May timetable change but can anyone confirm.

I shall certainly be attempting to get on the evening run if possible, though it's tricky for me at the minute.

I'm certainly up for some windows-open action in the front car!

 

[Doomotron]

It is sad to see the 365s go, but I can't say I'm shocked. I am disappointed they're going before the Southern 313s and 455s and the ScotRail 318s, but quite frankly they're not as good as new trains, and it's not like companies are going to replace old trains with slightly less old trains. The 377/5 rumour, rather like the 707s replacing 376s rumour, is a load of rubbish and won't be happening. Until we hear from official sources (that's press releases from the ROSCOs and TOCs!), the 365s are being withdrawn permanently, the 377/5s are staying with Southeastern, and the 707s are supplementing, not replacing, the Networkers.