Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion

[43102EMR]

Wait, there was a rumour of 365s to LNER??

This is the first time I've heard that, but clearly the chances of that happening are smaller than our chances of winning Eurovision.

Something to do with the IET situation I believe

 

[59CosG95]

Something to do with the IET situation I believe

Are they cleared north of Peterborough on their own power? I'd hope any signalling issues on the routes they'd be potentially deployed on have been resolved in advance... unless that was all dealt with when the 373s ran on the route.

 

[bramling]

Are they cleared north of Peterborough on their own power? I'd hope any signalling issues on the routes they'd be potentially deployed on have been resolved in advance... unless that was all dealt with when the 373s ran on the route.

365s have worked to York under their own power - WAGN ran a press run there in the fleet’s very early days with 365540/541 when they were new.

There were tentative plans for WAGN to run 365s north of Peterborough, which fortunately never happened - I say fortunately as how would they have resourced their increasingly busy commuter service south of Peterborough?

 

[JonathanH]

It’s more significant than you might think. It isn’t so much the fact that it’s a “couple of peak trains”, but the fact that the trains in question start their journey closer in - in particular for the Baldock journeys. People value this because it essentially means more chance of a seat. I know this is one reason why more than one user group is up in arms over the 2022 consultation timetable.

Likewise on the Peterborough route the missing services are the limited-stop ones, another thing people value.

Look at it from the point of view of a Baldock or St Neots commuter. The former had six morning peak services starting there, whilst the latter had a load of morning peak services calling at only two stations between there and London. Ditto both had a range of fast evening services home. Similar for Knebworth and Welwyn North who had fast services, and for Welwyn GC who are missing the 2Yxx services. All now missing, yet of course the season ticket remains the same price.

There’s an increasing amount of social media moaning about this.

All of these though are luxuries which a decreased ridership isn't going to pay for. If there is room for Baldock or Welwyn passengers on the through services, even if they have to stand, so long as the overcrowding isn't any greater than it was before March 2020 it is difficult to see why the peak extras would be restored.

If six trains were filled to 110% before and two trains are filled to 110% now, then the level of service is about right.

 

[Ianno87]

There’s an increasing amount of social media moaning about this.

Depends how much of that moaning is actually translating into people choosing not to travel at all.

 

[warwickshire]

ROG STP 27/09

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1047 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Belmont Down Yard

Out off interest locomotive move didn't run. Today Monday 27th September 2021.
Has there been a change off plan. ?.
Or will move occur later?.

 

[bramling]

All of these though are luxuries which a decreased ridership isn't going to pay for. If there is room for Baldock or Welwyn passengers on the through services, even if they have to stand, so long as the overcrowding isn't any greater than it was before March 2020 it is difficult to see why the peak extras would be restored.

If six trains were filled to 110% before and two trains are filled to 110% now, then the level of service is about right.

This is a catch 22. If the railway wants the high-value ridership back, it is going to have to provide some element of these luxuries. We seemed to manage in the 1990s without trains being packed to the rafters and it somehow being unaffordable.

 

[3973EXL]

Out off interest locomotive move didn't run. Today Monday 27th September 2021.
Has there been a change off plan. ?.
Or will move occur later?.

Newport Docks today no schedule input - not running gauging issues.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

365 501 and one other are apparently off to booths in Rotherham tomorrow.

 

[warwickshire]

Newport Docks today no schedule input - not running gauging issues.

Could it be possible.
Maybe the steps might need removal before scrap move.?.
Or routing issues.?

 

[brad465]

365 501 and one other are apparently off to booths in Rotherham tomorrow.

According to Richard Clinnick, the other is 365511, and the date is Thursday:

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1442812545031675907

It's 365501 and 365511 that are reported to be the first Cl.365s to be sent to meet their maker. Crewe-Booths this Thursday.

If they really are going to "meet their maker", there seems to be a Lord of the Rings touch to this.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I'd argue that commuters aren't high value per journey - even if season-tickets are the most significant proportion of fare-box income. Commuters pay lower fares per journey than walk-on users: compare a walk-on return fare from St Neots to/from Kings Cross before 9am on a weekday, with the daily cost of a monthly (let alone an annual) season ticket. But providing the service to commuters is the costliest - in that much of the stock stands idle for much of the rest of the day, and the infrastructure needed to deliver the peak service is under-utilised for much of the day. Walk-on users (especially those travelling in the peak) are the most high-value riders, with walk-on peak travel, and often walk-on off-peak riders, being higher value than season ticket holders. It's generally the case that walk-on users (but only a small proportion of advance fare users) are actually subsidising season-ticket holders. And season-ticket holders effectively get 'free' weekend travel too!

Living in Manchester, an annual season ticket to Euston is £16,168, which if I were to travel 200 days a year (probably fewer times than most commuters pre-pandemic), equates to a peak return fare of just over £80 per day. But the walk-on fare on a weekday if I want to arrive in Euston before 11.30 is £369.40, then coming down to £94.50 - providing I don't want to return home between 3pm and 7pm (which may not be used on an off-peak ticket).

The railway would cost less if it didn't have to pay for rolling stock and infrastructure that is only fully utilised for a few hours each weekday, and the cost of providing the additional capacity in the weekday peaks isn't borne by the very people who cause it - the commuters. In many ways it's commuters who are pricing other users off the railway.

I disagree with almost all of this post.

£80 a day for 200 days compared to the odd one-off £369 you have quoted i.e. two Anytime Singles (which very few would actually pay, and even fewer more than once) is far far more important to revenue and the bottom line.

It would be a very irregular and unsavvy traveller that actually turned up and paid £184.70 one way, and the same to get home at 5pm.

Season tickets sold are virtually guaranteed revenue and free cashflow up front.

Well you may well get your wish, season ticket revenues have plummeted and may never properly recover. The commuters that are left will still be packed in like sardines like before, just on fewer and shorter trains than before. I hope your lucrative walk-up customers will be able to sustain even the stripped back service we have now. There will be more of them now that the ex-season ticket holders are now only in the office twice a week.

 

[Ianno87]

.

Season tickets sold are virtually guaranteed revenue and free cashflow up front.

Not any more they're not. "9 to 5" commuting is, in effect, now discretional.

But going in once or twice per week instead yields much higher revenue per journey, but the idea of "thou shalt line up for the 0745 train to be at thine desk by 0855" (essentially the market that the GN peak extras are for) is no more, with people empowered to apply more flexibility to their travel time to when there is capacity.

 

[Fuzzytop]

365511 was one of the units retained by GN until recently, I think?

Doesn't bode well for any of the class being able to escape imminent scrapping.

 

[3973EXL]

30/09

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0610 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Crewe South Yard
Realtime Trains - FRGT 0958 Crewe South Yard to Masboro Booths P S arrival time at Booths shown as 1600 - now amended to 1400.
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1506 Masboro Booths P S to Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail)

 

[brad465]

365511 was one of the units retained by GN until recently, I think?

Doesn't bode well for any of the class being able to escape imminent scrapping.

I'm pretty sure GN only retained even number units bar one or two odd numbered ones in the 30 range. 511 didn't go to Scotrail so unless I'm wrong about it's GN status, it's about as long out of service as the other units GN let go first.

 

[43096]

I'm pretty sure GN only retained even number units bar one or two odd numbered ones in the 30 range. 511 didn't go to Scotrail so unless I'm wrong about it's GN status, it's about as long out of service as the other units GN let go first.

511 and 539 were the two odd numbered units retained by GTR.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Not any more they're not. "9 to 5" commuting is, in effect, now discretional.

But going in once or twice per week instead yields much higher revenue per journey

Sorry, I wasn't clear, by "virtually guaranteed" I mean that the revenue from any one season ticket is pretty much assured to the TOC once it has been sold (partial refunds permitting), so from our neck of the woods it's a guaranteed £25 per weekday up front rather than a discretional £40 a day or two a week. Money in the bank is important! And season tickets support the business case for keeping 365s for peak Baldocks etc and it has vanished.

By no means is overall season ticket volume guaranteed going forward, indeed the opposite, that was my other point!

So, season ticket sales in normal times provide a cast iron business case for keeping a fleet like this for peak extras. Without seaon tickets, you can clap your hands at how much each journey generates all you want, but you're dealing not just with far fewer journeys but also zero certainty that you'll ever get that revenue. That's why season tickets matter so much to the business case.

Trying to keep on topic here (!) the downturn now means that the peak extras that a) are needed and b) the revenue can support, are far fewer. I can't see that ever coming back completely and the trains that are left may well get uncomfortable eventually. However the 365s really no longer have a business case and there may not be one for some years, when it will be too late, so I doubt they'll ever run again on GN, indeed anywhere!

 

[bramling]

I'm pretty sure GN only retained even number units bar one or two odd numbered ones in the 30 range. 511 didn't go to Scotrail so unless I'm wrong about it's GN status, it's about as long out of service as the other units GN let go first.

365511 and 365539 were the two retained by GTR. Not entirely sure why they were, it may simply have been a case of cheap to lease so they retained them because they could. Alternatively it might have been to do with the May 18 timetable debacle. But one way or other these two units were in service until around the same time the even numbered units were withdrawn.

Sorry, I wasn't clear, by "virtually guaranteed" I mean that the revenue from any one season ticket is pretty much assured to the TOC once it has been sold (partial refunds permitting), so from our neck of the woods it's a guaranteed £25 per weekday up front rather than a discretional £40 a day or two a week. Money in the bank is important! And season tickets support the business case for keeping 365s for peak Baldocks etc and it has vanished.

By no means is overall season ticket volume guaranteed going forward, indeed the opposite, that was my other point!

So, season ticket sales in normal times provide a cast iron business case for keeping a fleet like this for peak extras. Without seaon tickets, you can clap your hands at how much each journey generates all you want, but you're dealing not just with far fewer journeys but also zero certainty that you'll ever get that revenue. That's why season tickets matter so much to the business case.

Trying to keep on topic here (!) the downturn now means that the peak extras that a) are needed and b) the revenue can support, are far fewer. I can't see that ever coming back completely and the trains that are left may well get uncomfortable eventually. However the 365s really no longer have a business case and there may not be one for some years, when it will be too late, so I doubt they'll ever run again on GN, indeed anywhere!

This is all well and good, but it’s a bit premature to be getting the crystal ball out, when no one really knows how things are going to pan out with commuting. We’re not even really into the “new normal” yet, whatever form that may take, a lot of the current position is still dictated by Covid measures.

Short-distance commuting has already bounced back to some extent, and stuff like the Baldock peak services is only one step up from this (Baldock to London is around 40 minutes, less from places like Hitchin, which isn’t massively different in time terms from some London suburban / Underground routes).

It all seems rather premature to me, and I continue to be surprised GTR seem content to keep their two remaining DC-motored fleets going rather than use the Gatwick Electrostars to make inroads there. There are of course rumours of something involving the 376s, but I’m not sure how authentic these are.

 

[warwickshire]

365511 and 365539 were the two retained by GTR. Not entirely sure why they were, it may simply have been a case of cheap to lease so they retained them because they could. Alternatively it might have been to do with the May 18 timetable debacle. But one way or other these two units were in service until around the same time the even numbered units were withdrawn.

Correct.
Also the first two to leave gtr hornsey E.M.U.D Depot on the 07th April 2021 .
Hauled by 37884.
Known as the gream reaper for its frequent origins on many 321 scrap moves to Newport.
And last week's x2 mk3 scrap moves as well.
Both 365511 and 365539.
Moved to crewe. On 07th April 2021.
I believe 365539.
Is now at Belmont.
Didn't it move recently to there. From crewe.
Wouldn't it be iconic because 37884 was also that day 07th April 2021. It did the first 365 gtr storage move from hornsey off the year. 2021. When the first went off lease.
However it could be the first for 365 haulage for withdrawal as well.

 

[brad465]

365511 and 365539 were the two retained by GTR. Not entirely sure why they were, it may simply have been a case of cheap to lease so they retained them because they could. Alternatively it might have been to do with the May 18 timetable debacle. But one way or other these two units were in service until around the same time the even numbered units were withdrawn.

Thank for the correction, 539 was the one I was thinking of with the "in the 30s" reference. By coincidence 365511 is the unit featuring on the class' wikipedia page to display its original cab shape:

British Rail Class 365 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[DustyBin]

These units have been quite unfortunate really. The lack of a rolling stock strategy, lack of electrification and even the loss of the ability to run on DC (for those once able to) has left them with nowhere to go. I seldom travelled on them but I thought they were excellent trains.

Am I correct in thinking that the fleet is under split ownership? Are some effectively public owned? If so that may affect which go for scrap, for now anyway.

 

[43096]

These units have been quite unfortunate really. The lack of a rolling stock strategy, lack of electrification and even the loss of the ability to run on DC (for those once able to) has left them with nowhere to go. I seldom travelled on them but I thought they were excellent trains.

Am I correct in thinking that the fleet is under split ownership? Are some effectively public owned? If so that may affect which go for scrap, for now anyway.

They are all now owned by Eversholt.

 

[Fuzzytop]

As I understand it, the 365s were owned by Eversholt until August 2019, when they exercised a clause in the original financing model to sell the units for £123m to the DfT as 'Train Fleet 2019 Ltd'. This arrangement continued for two years, but all 40 extant sets were quietly transferred back to Eversholt in August this year (see Railways Illustrated, 3 Aug 21).

They are currently at the bottom of Eversholt's list of stock available for lease or disposal, but given the lack of 'fact file' page on the website, I jump to the conclusion that they would rather realise those assets rather than hanging round any longer.

It's all understandable but a great shame there is no work for them - they were brilliant units. Ultimately I believe they were replaced prematurely on the Cambridge fasts, especially considering that Govia's original plan for the GTR franchise was to replace 20ish 365s for 19 377/5s.

 

[DustyBin]

As I understand it, the 365s were owned by Eversholt until August 2019, when they exercised a clause in the original financing model to sell the units for £123m to the DfT as 'Train Fleet 2019 Ltd'. This arrangement continued for two years, but all 40 extant sets were quietly transferred back to Eversholt in August this year (see Railways Illustrated, 3 Aug 21).

They are currently at the bottom of Eversholt's list of stock available for lease or disposal, but given the lack of 'fact file' page on the website, I jump to the conclusion that they would rather realise those assets rather than hanging round any longer.

It's all understandable but a great shame there is no work for them - they were brilliant units. Ultimately I believe they were replaced prematurely on the Cambridge fasts, especially considering that Govia's original plan for the GTR franchise was to replace 20ish 365s for 19 377/5s.

Thanks, it was the transfer back to Eversholt I’d missed.

 

[warwickshire]

In my opinion it sadly was only time before the 365 would have been ended in their duties anyway.
Covid 19 saw them off around a year early.
Even though some stayed till may 2021.
Personally iff covid 19 had not happened. Then most likely the redundant abeillo Anglia 379s.
Would have taken over to work alongside the 387s.
Hence sending them for withdrawal ie the gtr 365 during 2022.
So in reality and a shame because it would have been good to give us all a more better chance off a few final rides and moments on them in summer 2021.
So in all they got withdrawal from service a year early.

 

[Class360/1]

This ⬇️

It would be helpful to understand what specifically you disagree with. Let's look again at what I actually wrote .....
You disagree that "commuters aren't high value per journey"?
You disagree that "season tickets are the most significant proportion of fare-box income"?
You disagree that "commuters pay lower fares per journey than walk-on users"?
You disagree that "providing service to commuters is the costliest"?
You disagree that "much stock for commuters stands idle for much of the rest of the day"?
You disagree that "the infrastructure needed to deliver the peak service is under-utilised for much of the day"?
You disagree that "walk-on users are actually subsidising season-ticket holders"?
You disagree that "season-ticket holders effectively get 'free' weekend travel too?"
You disagree that "the railway would cost less if it didn't have to pay for rolling stock and infrastructure that is only fully utilised for a few hours each weekday"?
You disagree that "it's commuters who are pricing other users off the railway"?

I stay in Cambridge with family quite a few times a year, and often take a trip to London while I'm there. Frequent, fast, affordable - and often quite pleasant - especially in the late (and soon to be lamented) 365s. But from Manchester trains may be fast and fairly frequent - but I find being in a cramped Pendolino, usually with little / obscured views of outside, anything but pleasant. And the 'peak'-time cost - over FOUR TIMES the cost of the same journey on an annual railcard - to me is not affordable. And so I find myself having been priced off the railway. I also find it pretty poor that 'peak' covers arrivals into Euston up to 11.30, and from 15.00 to 19.00 - and yes, I can see that it's to protect income, etc - but it still adversely penalises the occasional traveller who needs to do something mid-morning in London.

Your point that very few people would actually buy the full open return fare, is of course valid. And if you can plan which specific dates / trains you will be using, and can purchase your tickets ahead, that does reduce the cost considerably. But if you don't have that luxury, you'll have to pay way in excess (probably between two and four times) of the cost of the same journeys using an annual railcard.

It seems to me that changes in commuting patterns are going to alter the balance of fare-box income. And I suspect you're right that this may result in decreased provision for commuters (less frequent / shorter trains), and unsurprisingly you don't relish this prospect. But there could be upsides for other users of the railway, especially if the disparity between the cost per journey for walk-on occasional users compared with season-ticket holders is reduced. And with working patterns changing, any additional revenue generated by these users might be very welcome for the railway - especially if season-ticket revenue is decreasing.

 

[387star]

I noticed lots of these at Doncaster
They all had purple ends which surprised me
When were these applied and why don't 717s have them?

 

[59CosG95]

I noticed lots of these at Doncaster
They all had purple ends which surprised me
When were these applied and why don't 717s have them?

The 717s have cameras at every door (as do the 700s). The 365s had to use the platform end mirrors; the purple ends were to reduce solar glare in said mirrors.

 

[bramling]

The 717s have cameras at every door (as do the 700s). The 365s had to use the platform end mirrors; the purple ends were to reduce solar glare in said mirrors.

The bodyside cameras have a similarly wonderfully simple solution to the issue of glare - in their case a hood over the camera. I can’t help but smile at the simplify of this!

In my opinion it sadly was only time before the 365 would have been ended in their duties anyway.
Covid 19 saw them off around a year early.
Even though some stayed till may 2021.
Personally iff covid 19 had not happened. Then most likely the redundant abeillo Anglia 379s.
Would have taken over to work alongside the 387s.
Hence sending them for withdrawal ie the gtr 365 during 2022.
So in reality and a shame because it would have been good to give us all a more better chance off a few final rides and moments on them in summer 2021.
So in all they got withdrawal from service a year early.

I don’t know about this, as the 379 fleet is roughly the same size as the 387s, so you’d have still ended up with a mixed fleet on GN, albeit a bit more standardised than with the 365s.

I’m more of the mind that the long-term use of the 365s would have depended on whether anyone was prepared to pay to fit bodyside cameras and ETCS.

In a rational world the 387s would have been rather more gainfully employed replacing 40-year-old fleets south of the river. I’m sure Coastway users crammed into ancient three-car 313s would be thrilled to know there’s 20-year-old stock going for scrap. We do of course wait to see if they manage to do anything with these two fleets.