Class 365s to Scotrail

[gsnedders]

What do DGauge and SNC Lavalin have to do with the 365s?

 

[Ianno87]

What do DGauge and SNC Lavalin have to do with the 365s?

I presume Scotrail have hired in some of their rolling stock experts to assist in the process of getting them ready for service.

 

[The_Engineer]

RailEngineer has posted an article today that talks about the start of full electric service between Glasgow Queen St & Edinburgh via Falkirk High using Class 365s: https://www.railengineer.uk/2018/06/01/full-glasgow-to-edinburgh-electric-service-in-july/

Very good news! It will take the pressure off the Class 385 modification programme.

The end of this statement refers to a Class 395 windscreen problem! No doubt an errant typo, not heard that the Class 395s have been withdrawn yet.....

 

[The_Engineer]

What do DGauge and SNC Lavalin have to do with the 365s?

Basically, they have the brainy engineers who work out what's required to make the trains fit the loading gauge, preparing safety procedures and certification for the train modifications such that they can be passed as safe to run on the required routes.

 

[D365]

Basically, they have the brainy engineers...

Whereas other companies have the “not-so-brainy” engineers

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What do DGauge and SNC Lavalin have to do with the 365s?

SNC Lavelin used to be Interfleet Engineering and go back to BR Research at Derby for their expertise.
They are a vehicle certification body, among other things, working with TOCs, ROSCOs, manufacturers and Network Rail.
And happen to be part of the show about to start running LNER for the DfT.

 

[edwin_m]

SNC Lavelin used to be Interfleet Engineering and go back to BR Research at Derby for their expertise.
They are a vehicle certification body, among other things, working with TOCs, ROSCOs, manufacturers and Network Rail.
And happen to be part of the show about to start running LNER for the DfT.

SNC Lavalin is not organisationally descended from BR Research, although like many businesses in Derby it employs various former BR Research people.

SNC Lavalin was Interfleet was the Intercity fleet engineer was part of BR Director Mechanical & Electrical Engineering. BR Research did also collect some DM&EE people in one of BR's later reorganisations but became AEA Technology Rail and then imploded and what's left is now called Resonate. BR Research came up with the APT and DM&EE came up with the HST.

 

[Highlandspring]

365509 and 365537 arriving at Glasgow Works later this morning.

 

[InOban]

According to the ever-reliable(?) Mr Dalton of the Scotsman, 365s will take over two of the hourly services sometime this month, with the 380 staying on a third and the fourth remaining diesel.

 

[gordonjahn]

I scanned this and missed first time that this image (from https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScottishRailways/permalink/1025705324248852/) has step boards and Scotrail livery as it's moved to Eastfield:

 

[scotraildriver]

A strange problem has come to light in that these trains don't carry a wheelchair ramp. A modification is required to fit a bracket near the disabled toilet. Was all disabled assistance provided by station staff at Great Northern?

 

[Skimble19]

A strange problem has come to light in that these trains don't carry a wheelchair ramp. A modification is required to fit a bracket near the disabled toilet. Was all disabled assistance provided by station staff at Great Northern?

Yes, all assistances on Great Northern are provided by station staff - there isn't usually any staff on board other than the driver and occasionally some revenue staff.

 

[gsnedders]

A strange problem has come to light in that these trains don't carry a wheelchair ramp. A modification is required to fit a bracket near the disabled toilet. Was all disabled assistance provided by station staff at Great Northern?

Where on Edinburgh–Glasgow are ramps not provided by the station staff? Croy? Lenzie, for the few services that call there?

 

[scotraildriver]

Late night services when stations are unstaffed or if staff are absent or busy for another reason. Also if passengers turn up without booking assistance the guard will deploy the ramp. It happens very regularly. Croy has 4 E&G services per hour, not just a few.

 

[gsnedders]

Late night services when stations are unstaffed or if staff are absent or busy for another reason. Also if passengers turn up without booking assistance the guard will deploy the ramp. It happens very regularly. Croy has 4 E&G services per hour, not just a few.

Ah, I wasn't sure about staffing of Linlithgow/Polmont/Falkirk. Croy I'm well aware has a frequent service—the "few services that call there" was referring to Lenzie exclusively, given that really does have a rare service!

 

[gordonjahn]

Ah, I wasn't sure about staffing of Linlithgow/Polmont/Falkirk. Croy I'm well aware has a frequent service—the "few services that call there" was referring to Lenzie exclusively, given that really does have a rare service!

The ramps are kept within the station buildings at Lenzie so access would be a problem - the cages they sit in make great extra seating whilst waiting for the train though. Rare as the service is, it's still welcome and worth making the effort to be on the 0638/0708 GLQ-EDB or 1730 (or 2300+) EDB-GLQ instead of changing at Croy!

 

[Southsider]

A BBC article on their website this morning quotes Alex Hynes as confirming 10 365s have been leased so four more to come north if my arithmetic is correct.

 

[385001]

Alastair Dalton's article in The Scotsman confirming the lease for 10 365s.

Also indicates that it won't be long before we see the 385s.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...his-month-on-edinburgh-glasgow-line-1-4750627

Eight-carriage trains to ease crowding this month on Edinburgh-Glasgow line

Passengers on ScotRail’s flagship route are due to get eight-carriage trains for the first time this month to ease overcrowding.

The operator announced today it had agreed a lease for ten stop-gap trains for the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line.

The four-coach Class 365 electric trains, which can be coupled together, will be an increase on the current maximum six and seven-coach trains.

The so-called “Happy Trains” - because they appear to smile - have been drafted in to plug gaps caused by delays to ScotRail’s brand new Hitachi fleet and leases expiring on other trains.

This has forced the firm to shorten some peak-hour services.

The trains are expected to operate two of the four hourly services between the cities. A third is already run by other electric trains.

The fourth will continue to be operated by one of the existing diesel trains, which are to be replaced.

The Class 365s are due to carry passengers by the end of the month, with the first Hitachi train expected to follow suit next month.

ScotRail Alliance managing director Alex Hynes said: “I am delighted we have secured an extra ten electric trains to boost the number of seats available to our customers by 17,200 a day.

"This is great news for our customers travelling between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

“Securing these extra trains has been made possible thanks to a lot of our people across the ScotRail Alliance working flat out in recent weeks.

Transport minister Humza Yousaf said: "The 17,200 extra seats each day - that’s around 800 an hour - ensures a capacity boost between Edinburgh-Glasgow to support our major events in Scotland this summer.

“The recent arrival of the first four class 365 trains in Scotland is welcome news, enabling staff training to progress more quickly as well as providing more work at Springburn to prepare the fleet.

“We thank passengers for their patience on those routes particularly impacted by capacity issues and assure them these class 365 trains will help alleviate this issue.”

 

[385001]

And here is the ScotRail confirmation.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...cures-ten-extra-trains-edinburgh-glasgow-line

ScotRail secures ten extra trains for Edinburgh - Glasgow line

Thursday, 7 June 2018
17,200 extra seats per day

ScotRail has secured an extra ten electric trains to boost the number of seats available for customers on the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High route.

The modern class 365 electric trains will provide an additional 17,200 seats a day for customers travelling between Scotland’s two largest cities.

The leasing deal for the electric class 365 trains has been agreed between ScotRail and Eversholt Rail, one of the UK’s leading rolling stock owners.

The first of the class 365 electric trains will enter passenger service in the coming weeks. The trains are a temporary hire as ScotRail prepares for the delivery of brand new electric class 385 trains from Hitachi, which are expected to enter service in the coming months.

Alex Hynes, ScotRail Alliance Managing Director, said:

“I am delighted that we have secured an extra ten electric trains to boost the number of seats available to our customers by 17,200 a day. This is great news for our customers travelling between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

“Securing these extra trains has been made possible thanks to a lot of our people across the ScotRail Alliance working flat out in recent weeks.

“The coming months will see a transformation in Scotland’s railway, and we can’t wait for customers to feel the benefits. It’s all part of our plan to build the best railway Scotland has ever had.”

Humza Yousaf, Minister for Transport and the Islands, said:

“This is the fruition of ScotRail working together with Eversholt Rail to finalise this lease for a number of class 365s. The 17,200 extra seats each day, that’s around 800 an hour, ensures a capacity boost between Edinburgh-Glasgow to support our major events in Scotland this summer.

“The recent arrival of the first four class 365 trains in Scotland is welcome news, enabling staff training to progress more quickly as well as providing more work at Springburn to prepare the fleet.

“We thank passengers for their patience on those routes particularly impacted by capacity issues and assure them these class 365 trains will help alleviate this issue.”

Mary Kenny, Eversholt Rail CEO, said:

“The swift cross-team collaboration is testament to the trusted relationships Eversholt Rail holds with its partners.

“With all parties working firmly towards a common goal, we are proud to be playing a part in boosting the number of trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow for the benefit of ScotRail’s passengers.”

 

[Southsider]

And here is the ScotRail confirmation.

https://www.scotrail.co.uk/about-sc...cures-ten-extra-trains-edinburgh-glasgow-line

So that's 5 8 car sets. How many are actually required to run the full service and does 10 sets match the capacity/number of diesel sets that are leaving? Apologies if this has been covered before.

 

[stantheman]

What will happen to the displaced 170s ?

 

[gordonjahn]

So that's 5 8 car sets. How many are actually required to run the full service and does 10 sets match the capacity/number of diesel sets that are leaving? Apologies if this has been covered before.

Looks like 4 have moved already, 6 are due to move in July and the last 6 in November. 10 sets matches the number of 170 sets, but obviously more vehicles and seats.

 

[sprinterguy]

So that's 5 8 car sets. How many are actually required to run the full service and does 10 sets match the capacity/number of diesel sets that are leaving? Apologies if this has been covered before.

The service operates with eight diagrams (EDIT: Sixteen diagrams), if all trains operate as pairs, so 4 x 8-car sets required (EDIT: 8 x paired sets). Two class 365 units on any given day I'd expect to be maintenance spares.

A 6-car class 170 formation seats 36 in first class and 336 in standard class, while an 8-car class 365 formation will seat 48 in first class and 480 in standard class: A significant increase.

What will happen to the displaced 170s ?

A further twelve class 170 units are required to transfer to Northern; six in July and the final six in November as noted by gordonjahn above.

 

[Southsider]

The service operates with eight diagrams, if all trains operate as pairs, so 4 x 8-car sets required. The remaining two units on any given day I'd expect to be maintenance spares.

A 6-car class 170 formation seats 36 in first class and 336 in standard class, while an 8-car class 365 formation will seat 48 in first class and 480 in standard class: A significant increase.

A further twelve class 170 units are required to transfer to Northern; six in July and the final six in November as noted by gordonjahn above.

A significant increase indeed and most welcome. I hope Scotrail receive some plaudits for organising this workaround so quickly. I assume the six diesels going in November is timed to tie in with Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa going electric.

 

[gingertom]

A significant increase indeed and most welcome. I hope Scotrail receive some plaudits for organising this workaround so quickly. I assume the six diesels going in November is timed to tie in with Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa going electric.

there's already been the predictable "London cast-offs" in the comments after the Herald's article. As for the 6 diesels going in November I reckon they were always going because the Stirling, Dunblane and Alloa eletrification would have been well complete by then and over to electric operation. It will be touch and go whether that is the case and we may have another diesel shortage for a short time until those schemes are completed. The arrival of some 385s would allow the E&G to be 100% electric, so the four 170s so displaced would partially mitigate the loss of those six.

 

[D365]

there's already been the predictable "London cast-offs" in the comments after the Herald's article.

What do they want? Brand new trains to fill in for their brand new trains?

c2c certainly didn't have it that good when the 357s were rolled out!

 

[mde]

there's already been the predictable "London cast-offs" in the comments after the Herald's article.

The comments page on that publication's website/social media are generally worth avoiding in all honesty.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

The service operates with eight diagrams, if all trains operate as pairs, so 4 x 8-car sets required. The remaining two units on any given day I'd expect to be maintenance spares.

That calculation isn't quite right - at the peak time there are four departures from each terminus making eight in total as you say, with each one doubled-up until the unit shortage started. So 16 units required in service every day, plus a number of spares. So at best the 365s can only supply 10 of those 16 units each day, and in practice some days a pair may be stopped for exams etc. With the existing 380s (I think 5 or 6 units each day just now?) there will still only just be enough to cover all the E&G diagrams until 385s start appearing, so I'd expect one or two departures per peak to be formed of a 4-car set rather than 2x3-car sets as happened with the 170s?

 

[gingertom]

That calculation isn't quite right - at the peak time there are four departures from each terminus making eight in total as you say, with each one doubled-up until the unit shortage started. So 16 units required in service every day, plus a number of spares. So at best the 365s can only supply 10 of those 16 units each day, and in practice some days a pair may be stopped for exams etc. With the existing 380s (I think 5 or 6 units each day just now?) there will still only just be enough to cover all the E&G diagrams until 385s start appearing, so I'd expect one or two departures per peak to be formed of a 4-car set rather than 2x3-car sets as happened with the 170s?

one would hope that, by the time the 170s have to leave, there would be sufficient 385s in service on the E&G. Throw in a couple of HSTs on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen services the 170 diagrams would be well covered, so we can say goodbye to them without leaving ourselves short.

 

[The_Engineer]

That calculation isn't quite right - at the peak time there are four departures from each terminus making eight in total as you say, with each one doubled-up until the unit shortage started. So 16 units required in service every day, plus a number of spares. So at best the 365s can only supply 10 of those 16 units each day, and in practice some days a pair may be stopped for exams etc. With the existing 380s (I think 5 or 6 units each day just now?) there will still only just be enough to cover all the E&G diagrams until 385s start appearing, so I'd expect one or two departures per peak to be formed of a 4-car set rather than 2x3-car sets as happened with the 170s?

As reported in the Scotsman:

The trains (i.e. Class 365s) are expected to operate two of the four hourly services between the cities. A third is already run by other electric trains. The fourth will continue to be operated by one of the existing diesel trains, which are to be replaced.

That means four x 8-car Class 365, two x Class 380 and two x Class 170 operated diagrams, with two x Class 365 on maintenance but could be used vice Class 170s if available.