Class 37 loco hauled Liverpool St - Kings Lynn.

Status
Not open for further replies.

The 375 King

Member
Joined
31 May 2012
Messages
49
As a child I lived in Ponders End, I always looked out for the Class 37 hauled trains doing an incredable speed through the station, it was quite an event. Today I am back in Ponders End and the trains are quiet and boring, what is wrong with thrash and excitement?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
There is nothing wrong with thrash and excitement, but the raison d'être of the railway isn't to provide entertainment for spotters, it is to transport people, and do you really think the public would:

1. Still want to be travelling in pressure ventilated MK IIs in 2012?
2. Want 50 year old locos hauling, and regularly failing on, their train?
 

AeroSpace

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2010
Messages
131
Bear in mind that as a child, you would have been about half the size, and that therefore everything would have seemed twice as big, twice as loud and twice as exciting as it does now.
 

a good off

Member
Joined
2 Jul 2010
Messages
251
Location
Control Room
There is nothing wrong with thrash and excitement, but the raison d'être of the railway isn't to provide entertainment for spotters, it is to transport people, and do you really think the public would:

1. Still want to be travelling in pressure ventilated MK IIs in 2012?
2. Want 50 year old locos hauling, and regularly failing on, their train?
Yes. ;)
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
There is nothing wrong with thrash and excitement, but the raison d'être of the railway isn't to provide entertainment for spotters, it is to transport people, and do you really think the public would:

1. Still want to be travelling in pressure ventilated MK IIs in 2012?
2. Want 50 year old locos hauling, and regularly failing on, their train?
Given that the mk II TSO was far and away the most comfortable second class coach ever made in terms of leg room, seat design, window alignment, ride quality etc I doubt anyone would mind as long as they were well maintained. Look at the WAG-Ex for example. The second point is correct but rather loaded. No, nobody would want locos failing, but you rightly state higher up that the public doesn't care what is hauling the train, so why would they care if the loco doing so was 50 years old, as long as it didn't fail often (modern trains fail too don't forget, and for things like doors failures that couldn't have happened on older vehicles).

This isn't to say that I think these trains should still be hauled by tractors. Much as I regret their passing I don't. Merely pointing out that you have on the one hand pointed out that the public has no interest in the trains qua trains, but then given two examples that are directly to do with the type of stock that the public supposedly wouldn't want.
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
Pressure ventilated MK IIs were the worst stock on the railway until the introduction of Pacers. The only redeeming feature was the tables of 4, and from observation many passengers really don't care, and many actually prefer airline seats as they are less likely to have somebody sat next to them.

Of course modern trains break down but nowhere near as often as 50 year old loco's if they were still trundling up and down.

Although I personally hate Voyagers for many reasons, I find it amusing that one of the main arguments against them used by many enthusiasts is the noise from the engines, and many of these enthusiasts are probably the same people who appreciate the noise from a loco up front.

What enthusiasts want and like is very different to what the public want and expect.
 

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
Burton on Trent
What enthusiasts want and like is very different to what the public want and expect.
Not always, the public want trains that are comfortable and can be lengthened during peak time, something of which loco hauled ticks both boxes.

The only thing wrong with the travelling public, is they dont know how to open doors <D
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,483
Location
Redcar
Not always, the public want trains that are comfortable and can be lengthened during peak time, something of which loco hauled ticks both boxes.
These are also things that MUs are perfectly capable of doing. There are plenty of strengthened services around London (and elsewhere) formed of MUs during the peak. Similarly I disagree that MUs are not capable of providing a comfortable travelling experience. Neither of the things you've mentioned are exclusive features of LHCS.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Not always, the public want trains that are comfortable and can be lengthened during peak time, something of which loco hauled ticks both boxes.
No, on the modern railway it's far easier to lengthen a MU service than a loco-hauled one. Unless we suddenly start rebuilding marshalling yards at every major station.
 

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
No, on the modern railway it's far easier to lengthen a MU service than a loco-hauled one. Unless we suddenly start rebuilding marshalling yards at every major station.
Also the fact is, very very few loco hauled trains were lengthened. They ran all day as the same formation. Sure, it was easier to add or swap carriages overnight in the carriage sidings but the suggestion that they frequently had carriages added between services is just a myth.
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,489
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Also the fact is, very very few loco hauled trains were lengthened. They ran all day as the same formation. Sure, it was easier to add or swap carriages overnight in the carriage sidings but the suggestion that they frequently had carriages added between services is just a myth.
No more of a myth than your post.

At Euston there were about 20 shunts per day to attach/detach coaches from rakes of stock prior to return workings even into the mid 80s, there were three station pilots provided...

Not to mention the shunts which occurred at Camden or Wembley.
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
At Euston there were about 20 shunts per day to attach/detach coaches from rakes of stock prior to return workings even into the mid 80s, there were three station pilots provided...
That may be the case, but the fact is that there just isn't the space, the signals or the capacity to do this at stations any more. The fact that every LHCS diagram today (other than the Caledonian sleepers, which are actually splitting, not just changing length) is operated as a fixed rake bears this out.

Whereas coupling/uncoupling MUs is quick, simple, requires no space other than the amount of platform it takes up, and doesn't need any extra locos and pilots to come down from whichever depot.
 

aylesbury

Member
Joined
3 Feb 2012
Messages
622
As a child I lived in Ponders End, I always looked out for the Class 37 hauled trains doing an incredable speed through the station, it was quite an event. Today I am back in Ponders End and the trains are quiet and boring, what is wrong with thrash and excitement?
Even better when a Brit or a B17 was on the front,all the long freight trains as well and all the sidings off the line added to a realy wide choice of locos.
 

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
Burton on Trent
These are also things that MUs are perfectly capable of doing. There are plenty of strengthened services around London (and elsewhere) formed of MUs during the peak. Similarly I disagree that MUs are not capable of providing a comfortable travelling experience. Neither of the things you've mentioned are exclusive features of LHCS.
i didn't say they were exclusive, but if coaching stock had auto couplers, then an 08 sat in a siding wouldnt take too much time to push a coach or two to the back of the train and scuttle back before it blocks the line
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,483
Location
Redcar
but if coaching stock had auto couplers, then an 08 sat in a siding wouldnt take too much time to push a coach or two to the back of the train and scuttle back before it blocks the line
Or a MU could arrive on an inbound service and couple up to a waiting train before running out on a now strengthened service. Or an extra unit could come from nearby carriage sidings or a depot and couple on to a waiting train in the platform. Quicker, simpler and doesn't require a pilot locomotive to sit around all day. Any way you slice it MU operation is more flexible/efficient than LHCS in most situations.
 

Harbon 1

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
1,002
Location
Burton on Trent
Or a MU could arrive on an inbound service and couple up to a waiting train before running out on a now strengthened service. Or an extra unit could come from nearby carriage sidings or a depot and couple on to a waiting train in the platform. Quicker, simpler and doesn't require a pilot locomotive to sit around all day. Any way you slice it MU operation is more flexible/efficient than LHCS in most situations.
but then a MU might make the train too long to fit into platforms
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,483
Location
Redcar
but then a MU might make the train too long to fit into platforms
Depends on the lengths of the MUs involved. I take it from your post that you're suggesting a situation where adding another 4-car unit will cause a train to become to long for platforms? Well, 380s come in 3-car and 4-car flavors meaning you can get formations of 3/4/6/7/8 but just using one or two units. So where a 8-car unit might be too much you can just deploy a 7-car unit or perhaps a 6-car unit. Further, trains these days often come with SDO which can help negate issues with platforms that are too short. It is also perfectly possible to extend platforms in many cases to help accommodate longer trains.

Again I do not see how LHCS adds any particular flexibility that cannot be achieved by MUs and if you're suggesting situations where TOCs might add just one carriage to a train then I'd be interested to hear of any examples where BR would add one carriage to strengthen a train for a peak time service.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
22,483
Location
Redcar
Like when LM stick a 153 onto a 170, for instance...
Okay you've got me there :lol:

However, I was thinking more along the lines of examples when BR/TOCs added a single carriage of LHCS to a train to strengthen a train for the peak. In some ways I suspect that an MU would again be better in this role than LHCS as you can add one carriage without need of a locomotive and it could be detached to operate by itself as well (until DDA comes into force in 2020 anyway).
 

Eagle

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2011
Messages
7,106
Location
Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
Actually if you want the ultimate flexibility look at the 158-9s on London to Salisbury/Exeter services. Units attaching, detaching and splitting all over the place. There is at least one service a day between Salisbury and London for every possible length between 3 and 10 cars, I believe.
 
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
931
Location
Blackpool south Shore
Also the fact is, very very few loco hauled trains were lengthened. They ran all day as the same formation. Sure, it was easier to add or swap carriages overnight in the carriage sidings but the suggestion that they frequently had carriages added between services is just a myth.
Pre HSTs days Coaches eg Buffet, restaurant Kitchen, 1st and several 2nd were added and removed at Plymouth to most trains entering and leaving Cornwall. The occasions they were left on, made the journey through Cornwall a lot slower!
Mk 2 coaches - table seating and larger windows :D:D
Silver service Breakfast or Dinner :D
 

4SRKT

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2009
Messages
4,409
When BR was operating everything the case against MUs was much stronger. There was a resistance to investing large sums in having expensive MUs standing idle all day except just a couple of trips in the peaks. The answer to this was to have LHCS for peak extras using locos that would spend the rest of the day on freights, parcels, PW work or whatever. Typical of this were the peak extras from London Bridge to East Grinstead/Uckfield that were 33 hauled. Likewise the Kensington Olympia service was once peak time only and was two coaches hauled by a 73 on diesel power. This is what is meant I think by saying that LHCS provides greater flexibility to add coaches to services during the peak.

The disappearance of parcels traffic and local freights, and the ownership structure of the railways today, means that the railway operators couldn't just move locos from one type of traffic to another even if they had them, although a flavour of this can be seen in the Fife Circle extras where the skips are free to do other stuff during the day,
 
Last edited:

NXEA!

Member
Joined
22 Oct 2009
Messages
482
As a child I lived in Ponders End, I always looked out for the Class 37 hauled trains doing an incredable speed through the station, it was quite an event. Today I am back in Ponders End and the trains are quiet and boring, what is wrong with thrash and excitement?
You're calling 317's quiet and boring? Pfft. ;) Probably the second loudest EMU there is, you'll have to take a ride in the motor coach at some point to see what I'm on about!
 

The 375 King

Member
Joined
31 May 2012
Messages
49
You're calling 317's quiet and boring? Pfft. ;) Probably the second loudest EMU there is, you'll have to take a ride in the motor coach at some point to see what I'm on about!


To be fair, yes 317s are bloody good, however I do miss the 37s and later 47s on this and other routes. It is, I think an age thing, in twenty years time there will be someone on here complaining that the modern stock is not as good as the networkers or 317/321/319 that he remembers as a kid.
 

heart-of-wessex

Established Member
Joined
11 Jun 2005
Messages
2,856
Location
Trowbridge
Yes, and the 317 to York was bloomin hellfire too! Even 319s are best with the same traction package.

As for the public and older stock, I'm sure people presume everyone likes modern trains? Most people in my family who are nowhere near train buffs will never take the train and will always drive, due to the fact the comfortable seats and service has changed for the worst since they last went on one donkeys years ago!
 

GazzaB24

Member
Joined
30 Apr 2011
Messages
81
These are also things that MUs are perfectly capable of doing. There are plenty of strengthened services around London (and elsewhere) formed of MUs during the peak. Similarly I disagree that MUs are not capable of providing a comfortable travelling experience. Neither of the things you've mentioned are exclusive features of LHCS.
Or Britain could have gone down the route of Germany and thus have multiple fixed sets of loco + stock coupled together thus getting the best of both worlds?
I have travelled on many a DB 218 + Dostos or n-wagen which were coupled up at peak times to another set doubling capacity, with no additional locos required.

http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/gbrailphotos/
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
When BR was operating everything the case against MUs was much stronger. There was a resistance to investing large sums in having expensive MUs standing idle all day except just a couple of trips in the peaks. The answer to this was to have LHCS for peak extras using locos that would spend the rest of the day on freights, parcels, PW work or whatever. Typical of this were the peak extras from London Bridge to East Grinstead/Uckfield that were 33 hauled. Likewise the Kensington Olympia service was once peak time only and was two coaches hauled by a 73 on diesel power. This is what is meant I think by saying that LHCS provides greater flexibility to add coaches to services during the peak.

The disappearance of parcels traffic and local freights, and the ownership structure of the railways today, means that the railway operators couldn't just move locos from one type of traffic to another even if they had them, although a flavour of this can be seen in the Fife Circle extras where the skips are free to do other stuff during the day,
BR didn't resist having MUs sitting in sidings between the peaks. At least not at Slade Green, Clapham Jcn, Wimbledon, Selhurst and a dozen other sidings I have been past. There may have been a few peak extras hauled by locos from time to time but this was probably more to do with not having enough MUs due to failure to close the odd line and increasing traffic causing shortages of rolling stock.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top