Class 373 Eurostar withdrawals

[DanNCL]

I understood that. What I never got clear in my mind is if "not cleared" in this case means that there is a physical limitation, or if it's that they've never done the paperwork to clear them, preferring to use the 373s because they have more storage space and aren't needed to operate the core services.

Was it possibly a signalling fault? The 374 didn’t have the right on board kit, so something or other had to be added to the platform lines, and that was supposed to have happened for about 2018 ish. But I think there was still an electrical noise issue that took ages to fix, maybe not until early 2020 - but that’s from memory...

There were two seperate issues that prevented the 374s from stopping at Ashford. The 374s don't have AWS or TPWS, therefore couldn't leave HS1 to access the platforms at Ashford until the platform lines had been equipped with the French KVB system. Once that was done, 374s did have a brief period stopping at Ashford, during that time an electrical issue was found, which led to the 374s being removed from Ashford stops again for several months until that issue was resolved.

The ski services I think was just a case of the paperwork previously not having been done for the 374s. The 373s might still be required for the Marseille route should it ever return, I don't recall the 374s ever being cleared for that route (though I could be mistaken), but otherwise the 374s can now cover all of the routes the 373s covered before the pandemic.

 

[najaB]

The ski services I think was just a case of the paperwork previously not having been done for the 374s. The 373s might still be required for the Marseille route should it ever return, I don't recall the 374s ever being cleared for that route (though I could be mistaken), but otherwise the 374s can now cover all of the routes the 373s covered before the pandemic.

Thanks. I though it might just be paperwork.

 

[Journeyman]

Don't the ski trains require 373s with 1500v DC capability?

 

[TheGrew]

Wikipedia seems to indicate that the 374s have all the electrical compatibility of the 373s and also 15kv which I think is what they use in Germany.

 

[najaB]

Don't the ski trains require 373s with 1500v DC capability?

According to Wikipedia the 374s have 1500VDC capability.

@TheGrew Beat me to it.

 

[Journeyman]

Wikipedia seems to indicate that the 374s have all the electrical compatibility of the 373s and also 15kv which I think is what they use in Germany.

Ah, fair enough. Maybe I was confused by not all 373s being 1500v compatible, rather than being the only trains that were, if you see what I mean. Guess 373s were used more for capacity than capability.

 

[Roast Veg]

There were two seperate issues that prevented the 374s from stopping at Ashford. The 374s don't have AWS or TPWS, therefore couldn't leave HS1 to access the platforms at Ashford until the platform lines had been equipped with the French KVB system. Once that was done, 374s did have a brief period stopping at Ashford, during that time an electrical issue was found, which led to the 374s being removed from Ashford stops again for several months until that issue was resolved.

The ski services I think was just a case of the paperwork previously not having been done for the 374s. The 373s might still be required for the Marseille route should it ever return, I don't recall the 374s ever being cleared for that route (though I could be mistaken), but otherwise the 374s can now cover all of the routes the 373s covered before the pandemic.

The electrical issue at Ashford was that the 3rd rail blew up a component by induction, I believe. Thanks for the ski train clarification.

 

[BahrainLad]

Didn’t the international platforms at Ashford also have to be reprofiled to fit the larger loading gauge of the 374s?

 

[najaB]

Didn’t the international platforms at Ashford also have to be reprofiled to fit the larger loading gauge of the 374s?

If that's the case then there was a serious failure in forward planning!

 

[DanielB]

According to Wikipedia the 374s have 1500VDC capability.

They definitely have that compatibility, otherwise they wouldn't be able to run the Amsterdam service The 374s run at 1500 V DC while passing through Rotterdam and after leaving the Dutch high speed line at Hoofddorp until Amsterdam.

 

[Railperf]

They definitely have that compatibility, otherwise they wouldn't be able to run the Amsterdam service The 374s run at 1500 V DC while passing through Rotterdam and after leaving the Dutch high speed line at Hoofddorp until Amsterdam.

Yes.. The 374's work off the following OLE systems.. 25kV AC, 3kV DC. 1.5kV DC and 15 kV AC.

 

[najaB]

Yes.. The 374's work off the following OLE systems.. 25kV AC, 3kV DC. 1.5kV DC and 15 kV AC.

One would think that they were made in an infantry-run coachworks near Bern.

 

[popeter45]

If that's the case then there was a serious failure in forward planning!

well originally there wasnt ever a plan for a european gauge line in the UK when Eurostar was first being formed so they never had to plan for such an idea when rebuilding ashford, all they needed was to fit the UK gauged 373's

 

[najaB]

well originally there wasnt ever a plan for a european gauge line in the UK when Eurostar was first being formed so they never had to plan for such an idea when rebuilding ashford, all they needed was to fit the UK gauged 373's

Are you sure about that? AFAIK, there was always the intention to have a high-speed connection between the tunnel portal and London just, as ever, they didn't have the money at the time.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yet they had the money to build several motorways including the M20.....

 

[najaB]

Yet they had the money to build several motorways including the M20.....

Well, there's *always* money for motorways.

 

[Hey 3]

Well, there's *always* money for motorways.

Because the political will is always 100% there unlike for investment for HSR, trains, trams, railways, metros and buses.......................

 

[Mikey C]

Yet they had the money to build several motorways including the M20.....

Because the M20 was more urgently needed than a high speed link to the tunnel.

Without it road traffic for the tunnel would be crawling through towns and villages, whereas even before HS1, the tunnel was at least connected with a 100mph mainline electric railway

 

[Hey 3]

Because the M20 was more urgently needed than a high speed link to the tunnel.

Without it road traffic for the tunnel would be crawling through towns and villages, whereas even before HS1, the tunnel was at least connected with a 100mph mainline electric railway

But that main line railway is at capacity, and is third rail operated, and High Speed 1 was more needed due to:
A= It relieved the South's rail network
B=It sped up journey times for North, Coastal, Central and Southern Kent and Europe
And does it matter if traffic had to crawl through towns and villages? No.

 

[Ianno87]

But that main line railway is at capacity, and is third rail operated, and High Speed 1 was more needed due to:
A= It relieved the South's rail network
B=It sped up journey times for North, Coastal, Central and Southern Kent and Europe
And does it matter if traffic had to crawl through towns and villages? No.

But they could (in general) find capacity needed for Eurostars through Kent with some relatively modest upgrades and infrastructure interventions. But yes, never a credible long-term solution.

And if you want to get Kent on side with building the tunnel or get lorries to the rest of the country, best not grinding their towns to a halt.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The M20 was under construction anyway, as was the M25 and the M40. France however has a HS connection with the tunnel operational before the tunnel was completed. We could have done the same, we should have done the same. The existing railway was too slow and too congested but BR had no choice because the government of the day wasn't interested. Ironically however just like with Stalybridge's extension cable, the cost of not doing so and messing about with development and fitting of pickup shoes to 373s, the "temporary" Waterloo and Ashford terminals, the electrification work, signalling immunisation etc combined would have massively contributed to the cost of doing so. UK is 30 years late to the HS Rail game and HS2 construction should have started when HS1 should have opened in 1994. Perhaps then regional Eurostar, Nightstar and all the other connected ideas might have just worked. Instead the government of the day were more interested in the M20 because they were "investing in roads but subsidising the railway"

 

[Ianno87]

The M20 was under construction anyway, as was the M25 and the M40. France however has a HS connection with the tunnel operational before the tunnel was completed. We could have done the same, we should have done the same. The existing railway was too slow and too congested but BR had no choice because the government of the day wasn't interested. Ironically however just like with Stalybridge's extension cable, the cost of not doing so and messing about with development and fitting of pickup shoes to 373s, the "temporary" Waterloo and Ashford terminals, the electrification work, signalling immunisation etc combined would have massively contributed to the cost of doing so. UK is 30 years late to the HS Rail game and HS2 construction should have started when HS1 should have opened in 1994. Perhaps then regional Eurostar, Nightstar and all the other connected ideas might have just worked. Instead the government of the day were more interested in the M20 because they were "investing in roads but subsidising the railway"

The silver lining is that by delaying the eventual building of HS1, an arguably better overall solution was found with the routeing into St Pancras via Stratford.

 

[Hey 3]

The M20 was under construction anyway, as was the M25 and the M40. France however has a HS connection with the tunnel operational before the tunnel was completed. We could have done the same, we should have done the same. The existing railway was too slow and too congested but BR had no choice because the government of the day wasn't interested. Ironically however just like with Stalybridge's extension cable, the cost of not doing so and messing about with development and fitting of pickup shoes to 373s, the "temporary" Waterloo and Ashford terminals, the electrification work, signalling immunisation etc combined would have massively contributed to the cost of doing so. UK is 30 years late to the HS Rail game and HS2 construction should have started when HS1 should have opened in 1994. Perhaps then regional Eurostar, Nightstar and all the other connected ideas might have just worked. Instead the government of the day were more interested in the M20 because they were "investing in roads but subsidising the railway"

The UK was late to the HSR game ever since we decided to make the APT-P/E and poured money into stuff like and simular to the WCML upgrade.......

 

[Mikey C]

But that main line railway is at capacity, and is third rail operated, and High Speed 1 was more needed due to:
A= It relieved the South's rail network
B=It sped up journey times for North, Coastal, Central and Southern Kent and Europe
And does it matter if traffic had to crawl through towns and villages? No.

So residents would have thousands of lorries crawling through their towns and villages every day? Nice

I'm very happy HS1 was built, and yes it should have been built earlier, but to suggest that somehow the M20 motorway is expendable is nonsense, when far more road vehicles have to cross the channel than rail passengers. Spanish Broccoli, Pfizer vaccines, British lamb going the other way etc

 

[S-Car-Go]

The UK was late to the HSR game ever since we decided to make the APT-P/E and poured money into stuff like and simular to the WCML upgrade.......

I think the APT was envisaged to be part of the channel tunnel project. If a joint train/brand/TOC wasn't developed, the APT was to be BR's offering, and SNCF would've had some sort of TGV derivative.