Class 377/5 Southeastern

[Starmill]

But there won't be as many cl700s on southern routes as Tattenham all day and Caterham peak hour services have been removed from from the Thameslink program in favour of Kent destinations. What that does to the potential cl455 and cl377 mix on the Southern on the routes is anyone guess.

There are still to be some services to Horsham and East Grinstead - and the peak services to Littlehampton

 

[physics34]

There are still to be some services to Horsham and East Grinstead - and the peak services to Littlehampton

will be quite alot of surplus 377s yes, from the ones you mentioned and London Bridge to Brightons aswell.

 

[SF-02]

You mean like the what the 8 that Southeastern have are doing?

Didn't Southeastern apply to lease a significantly higher number of 4 car EMUs, only to have the DfT reject their plan on the basis of there being nowhere to maintain or stable them?

GTR have just finished refreshing these units and they are actually very nice inside.

The first unit arrived at Cauldwell in 2009 so in fact they are only 8 years old. Speaking of which this presumably means Cauldwell will soon no longer have much / any work to do.

One does wonder why more than 8 units couldn't go to work for Southeastern, either on lease or a long-term loan. Perhaps more will do. Perhaps the Southeastern bidders will be proposing taking them all on permanently.

SE applied for 319s going surplus. DfT rejected.

SE then applied for 377s going surplus. Gibb report also recommended. Gibb report costed it at just £2 million for 20 trains. 8 months on - DfT silence.

 

[SF-02]

Pure speculation, but what's the odds they end up being part of a mix that involves Hastings or Eastbourne to Brighton and/or the 313s?

The Gibb report looked at this as an option v going to Southeastern to free up Networkers to boost Metro routes. Going to SE was Gibb's suggestion way back in January.

 

[D365]

SE applied for 319s going surplus. DfT rejected.

SE then applied for 377s going surplus. Gibb report also recommended. Gibb report costed it at just £2 million for 20 trains. 8 months on - DfT silence.

As I said above, nobody seems to want to pay that £2m.

 

[ScotGG]

As I said above, nobody seems to want to pay that £2m.

Seems madness that such a small sum could bring widespread improvements but the DfT won't fund it. Can't blame Southeastern given just how little extra time left they have but £2m for 18 months+ of improvements is little. But then again Grayling seems to only think cut, cut and cut (with big costs elsewhere or down the line)

 

[physics34]

Seems madness that such a small sum could bring widespread improvements but the DfT won't fund it. Can't blame Southeastern given just how little extra time left they have but £2m for 18 months+ of improvements is little. But then again Grayling seems to only think cut, cut and cut (with big costs elsewhere or down the line)

Maybe their are other ways from the new franchise..... or other plans

 

[ScotGG]

Maybe their are other ways from the new franchise..... or other plans

It's still 18 months away if another short term extension isn't given (which it has about 3 times now). £2 million for 18+ months extra capacity seems very good value rather than have them sit in sidings.

Just over £100k a month is small change when thinking of all the extra capacity offered and wider economic benefits of greater capacity directly on trains and road congestion (something the DfT seem not to consider)

 

[MML]

Thameslink have 15 x 4-car 377/5 allocated.
This would appear adequate to operate the proposed half-hourly Corby to St. Pancras service once electrification is complete.

If the service operated in 12-car formations and offered a proper first or business class seat in a dedicated carriage (instead of just the addition of antimacassars to a few standard class seats) and was operated by East Midlands Trains with a trolley service, then a Corby-Kettering-Wellingborough-Bedford-Luton-Luton Airport Parkway-London St.Pancras service would provide a welcome addition to the MML.
It would provide an acceptable alternative to the overcrowded EMT express trains originating from further north, and provide those travelling from Bedford and Luton with an express alternative to London.

Existing EMT express services could also be strengthened using the stock released from the current Corby train diagrams.
Thameslink customers joining at Harpenden and St. Albans would have a greater opportunity of finding a seat on existing services.
While it would not have the cross-London connections of Thameslink, it would satisfy some traffic flows which simply wish to reach a London terminus.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Two sets of 377/5's were out today on Southeastern diagrams

 

[Roast Veg]

I'm of the opinion that the fast Corby services will need to be operated by 110mph stock to fit it into fast line diagrams on the MML, though the 379s have been touted for the services. Putting the 377/s into what would effectively be fixed formation 12 car sets would ruin their chances of returning to the south with the rest of the class, and as such would be unlikely. They will either pop up on SE or SN duties periodically until they find a more permanent position after the changes to services in Kent.

 

[Class 170101]

How easy would it be to upgrade 377/5s for 110mph? Remember 350/1s were 100mph units as built.

 

[Domh245]

How easy would it be to upgrade 377/5s for 110mph? Remember 350/1s were 100mph units as built.

More difficult than a 379 (or other "Gen 2" Electrostar) - which already have a 110mph capable class member in the 387, which would suggest that the parts and software for that performance is all there. It could probably also be fitted to the older electrostars, but I'm sure that there'd be something that would make it more difficult to convert.

 

[westcoaster]

More difficult than a 379 (or other "Gen 2" Electrostar) - which already have a 110mph capable class member in the 387, which would suggest that the parts and software for that performance is all there. It could probably also be fitted to the older electrostars, but I'm sure that there'd be something that would make it more difficult to convert.

A 377 would get to 110mph no problem and keep going . It's just red tape and paperwork. Iirc it was one person at the DFT who kept units to 100 as soon as he left the speed was lifted higher. 387's are 110mph as built.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm of the opinion that the fast Corby services will need to be operated by 110mph stock to fit it into fast line diagrams on the MML.

My opinion is different.

In the peak, when capacity is tightest, all EMT Corby services have pathing time in between St P and Bedford to fit them in with the Thameslink service on the fast lines. Therefore operating at 100mph will actually help the timetable work better, without loss of journey time.

North of Bedford, it is 15 miles from Bedford to Wellingboro' and only 5 miles from Wellingboro' to Kettering South Jn. Trains will be above 100mph for perhaps 10 miles of the former stretch, and little if any of the latter. The difference between 100mph and 110mph is 3 seconds a mile. Therefore with the same rolling stock, a 100mph train calling at Wellingboro' and Kettering (Corby platform) will lose half a minute north of Bedford. But the 377s have much better acceleration than any current EMT stock, and they will make back that half minute - and more - on acceleration alone. Dwell times (currently 90seconds) may also be reduced to 60 seconds.

Taken together, I would expect a 100mph limited EMU to be around 1-2min quicker to Kettering (calling Luton, Bedford, Wellingboro') than existing rolling stock. 110mph offers little additional benefit and is not needed.

 

[Domh245]

A 377 would get to 110mph no problem and keep going . It's just red tape and paperwork. Iirc it was one person at the DFT who kept units to 100 as soon as he left the speed was lifted higher. 387's are 110mph as built.

On a one off basis, perhaps, but probably not regularly in service without affecting reliability, or creating other little headaches. For example, the 110mph upgrade for the 350s involved new parts for the motors, new dampers on the bogies, and alterations to the pantograph. Nothing insurmountable (other than the paperwork perhaps!) but unless there is more parts commonality between the generations than I thought (particularly with regards to the motors) then it's going to be easier for the later versions as they can just use whatever is on the 387 whilst the earlier versions may require a new design of part.

I'd be surprised if it was the case that some civil servant had an obsession with 100mph - it's more likely that all of the design work for the 375/377 was based on the maximum permissible speed on third rail (100mph) and then the performance under the wires was of secondary importance.

 

[westcoaster]

I'm sure I read on here and else where. The guy at the DFT did not like trains going over 100mph without having a quarter of the first coach not available to passenger use, hence on a 222 the never used Tm's/bike office one end and the kitchen the other, same on 390's etc. once he left the new guy autherised over 100mph running like the 350' and 387's.

 

[bengley]

Indeed, I don't think anyone in the first coach would have to worry too much about a 100mph head-on collision!

 

[Chris125]

I'd be surprised if it was the case that some civil servant had an obsession with 100mph - it's more likely that all of the design work for the 375/377 was based on the maximum permissible speed on third rail (100mph) and then the performance under the wires was of secondary importance.

I've never seen it suggested before, IIRC it was a long standing policy of the HMRI not to have any passengers in the leading carriage over 100mph (hence the DVTs) before being partially relaxed for the Voyagers etc then eventually removed altogether.

 

[physics34]

377511 is now at Selhurst depot

 

[physics34]

377509, 510 and 512 are actually in the new Horsham Thameslink sidings..first trains ive seen in there.

 

[Hophead]

377509, 510 and 512 are actually in the new Horsham Thameslink sidings..first trains ive seen in there.

700s have paid a visit

 

[aleggatta]

377509, 510 and 512 are actually in the new Horsham Thameslink sidings..first trains ive seen in there.

700s have paid a visit

I believe also there was a 377 visit a while back when the wheels locked up and it needed to be put out the way IIRC

 

[John1975]

377509, 510 and 512 are actually in the new Horsham Thameslink sidings..first trains ive seen in there.

Another 12 377/5 is planned to be making it's way to Horsham for temporary storage this Sunday.

 

[John1975]

377511 is now at Selhurst depot

Now on its way to Lovers Walk on 5B31 sandwiched inbetween two Southern units

 

[Fincra5]

Now on its way to Lovers Walk on 5B31 sandwiched inbetween two Southern units

One way to get SN drivers to use TLK stock

 

[John1975]

Another 12 377/5 is planned to be making it's way to Horsham for temporary storage this Sunday.

515, 516 and 523

 

[physics34]

515, 516 and 523

Cheers

 

[Mordac]

515, 516 and 523

That's doesn't quite add up to twelve...

 

[superalbs]

That's doesn't quite add up to twelve...

The carriages do.