Class 378's to be shortened to 4 cars and used on GOBLIN?

MatthewRead

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Apparently class 378's are to be used on the Gospel Oak-Barking line as a stop gap measure they will be shortened to 4 carriages as the terminal platform at Barking cannot accommodate 5 car trains is this true?
 
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Starmill

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This could easily result in a 25% capacity reduction on one of the four ELL branches.
While this is quite true, what is the typical loading on a train between Surrey Quays and New Cross, or between Sydenham and Crystal Palace? Not at all high, I would be willing to bet.

It could cause unusually high loadings elsewhere of course and it may result in annoying gaps. Guess we will see if they issue any timetable changes.
 

Class 170101

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Is there enough slack in the Class 378 fleet for the number of extra trains needed to cover the service without affecting existing Class 378 operated routes?
 

LeeLivery

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Seems like a bad idea for us on the ELL and the NLL which is even more rammed.

Simplistic answer: LO borrows some of the Gatwick Express 387s from GTR; shortening the 12 car diagrams to 8, reducing the amount of fresh air being moved between Victoria and Gatwick Airport every 15 minutes. Probably could get enough for at least a half hourly Goblin frequency. I know, never going to happen...

While this is quite true, what is the typical loading on a train between Surrey Quays and New Cross, or between Sydenham and Crystal Palace? Not at all high, I would be willing to bet.

It could cause unusually high loadings elsewhere of course and it may result in annoying gaps. Guess we will see if they issue any timetable changes.
No more than 20 off peak between Sydenham and Palace, helped by Southern services as well. But reducing Sydenham services in the peaks, especially evening, may cause real problems at Canada Water. If needs must, the New Cross services should be reduced; many can walk from New Cross Gate if needs be.
 

AM9

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I doubt that Tfl would see increasing their bill for stock leasing as better than shuffling what they already have at their disposal, as a worthwhile idea.
 

Kite159

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Apparently class 378's are to be used on the Gospel Oak-Barking line as a stop gap measure they will be shortened to 4 carriages as the terminal platform at Barking cannot accommodate 5 car trains is this true?
Barking isn't the issue, it is the bay at Gospel Oak which can only hold 4 carriages.

(Not sure about the length of the platform at Barking but the 378s can use platform 7 which can hold at least 8 carriages).

If London Overground need to free up units they could always cut down on the New Cross services.
 

simple simon

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So far only the one train, what happens after that depends on what happens with the 172s, 710s and the timescale.

I wonder, to free up trains, maybe some Richmond trains could reverse at Gunnersbury? Even if this freed up one train, it could still help tremendously.

Hopefully the paths (when in passenger service) of the 4 car Goblin 378's will become known.
 

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If London Overground need to free up units they could always cut down on the New Cross services.
A quick glance at the map would suggest that New Cross LO is neither here nor there compared to either picking up the DLR at Lewisham or going through to London Bridge, especially that the ELL does pass through Zone 1 (Shoreditch High Street). Oh and before anyone mentions St. John's, it is even more not-here-nor-there (unless going to/through London Bridge or maybe leaving the railway at New Cross) given the proximity and of Elverson Road DLR, especially as the latter receives a very frequent service.
 

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So far only the one train, what happens after that depends on what happens with the 172s, 710s and the timescale.

I wonder, to free up trains, maybe some Richmond trains could reverse at Gunnersbury? Even if this freed up one train, it could still help tremendously.

Hopefully the paths (when in passenger service) of the 4 car Goblin 378's will become known.
Possible given that Gunnersbury is an island platform, but then it would have to stand on the Richmond-bound track (because that is the only way to reverse there).
 

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Simplistic answer: LO borrows some of the Gatwick Express 387s from GTR; shortening the 12 car diagrams to 8, reducing the amount of fresh air being moved between Victoria and Gatwick Airport every 15 minutes.
I think you mean "between London and Brighton every half an hour, including some fully loaded peak 12 car diagrams"...

Even if there were 6 daily diagrams where 12 coaches could be replaced with 8 without causing overcrowding, short forming their services in this way might breach GTR's franchise agreement.
 
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Starmill

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I wonder, to free up trains, maybe some Richmond trains could reverse at Gunnersbury? Even if this freed up one train, it could still help tremendously.
That would annoy a lot of people travelling from Richmond.

Is it even possible to do without re-timing some District line services?
 

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While this is quite true, what is the typical loading on a train between Surrey Quays and New Cross, or between Sydenham and Crystal Palace? Not at all high, I would be willing to bet.

It could cause unusually high loadings elsewhere of course and it may result in annoying gaps. Guess we will see if they issue any timetable changes.
Agreed, the New Cross services seem like the obvious ones to chop, but Crystal Palace services run through Brockley and Honor Oak Park and are absolutely rammed in the high peaks.

While 387s can't easily run on the GOBLIN itself or NLL, can they run on the WLL? 377s can since obviously Southern runs their Milton Keynes to West Croydon services along here. Could LO deploy borrowed 377s or 387s on this route to free up trains?
 

43096

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I think you mean "between London and Brighton every half an hour, including some fully loaded peak 12 car diagrams"...

Even if there were 6 daily diagrams where 12 coaches could be replaced with 8 without causing overcrowding, short forming their services in this way might breach GTR's franchise agreement.
Better bet would be 387/1s off Great Northern, backfilled with the off-lease 365s.
 

FelixtheCat

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A quick glance at the map would suggest that New Cross LO is neither here nor there compared to either picking up the DLR at Lewisham or going through to London Bridge, especially that the ELL does pass through Zone 1 (Shoreditch High Street). Oh and before anyone mentions St. John's, it is even more not-here-nor-there (unless going to/through London Bridge or maybe leaving the railway at New Cross) given the proximity and of Elverson Road DLR, especially as the latter receives a very frequent service.
Incorrect. There are plenty of passengers on the New Cross trains. Most people use the Overground to change at Canda Water for the Jubilee Line.
 

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Incorrect. There are plenty of passengers on the New Cross trains. Most people use the Overground to change at Canda Water for the Jubilee Line.
DLR from Lewisham to Canary Wharf or through to London Bridge for the Jubilee line? The former is about as fast with many more services on the first leg. Also it is quite easy to walk to New Cross Gate.
 

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DLR from Lewisham to Canary Wharf or through to London Bridge for the Jubilee line? The former is about as fast with many more services on the first leg.
And why should all the commuters do this? Can the DLR cope with the additional patronage? I can answer the last one: it can't. They are rammed during peaks, even with the Stratford services extending to Lewisham.
 

simple simon

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That would annoy a lot of people travelling from Richmond.

Is it even possible to do without re-timing some District line services?
I think that whatever is done will annoy someone, somewhere - this includes simply cancelling a few trains because the rolling stock has been sent somewhere else. There is no easy, cheap and quick solution which will also be popular with the passengers!
 

LeeLivery

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I think you mean "between London and Brighton every half an hour, including some fully loaded peak 12 car diagrams"...

Even if there were 6 daily diagrams where 12 coaches could be replaced with 8 without causing overcrowding, short forming their services in this way might breach GTR's franchise agreement.
AH, I totally forgot they go to Brighton all day now, never mind.

And why should all the commuters do this? Can the DLR cope with the additional patronage? I can answer the last one: it can't. They are rammed during peaks, even with the Stratford services extending to Lewisham.
They shouldn't have to, but sometimes that's life. People manage to cope; we've had to put up with worse, including the suspension of the whole ELL once or twice in unforeseen circumstances.
 

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Presumably the 4-car 378 has already been withdrawn from its normal duties, so we should know by Wednesday next week when normal timetables are restored if any diagrams are being cancelled.
 

Jonny

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The 172s ought to be released. Perhaps the mayor should be held responsible for what happens unless a solution can be figured out. He will figure something out soon enough.
 

theking

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Why are tfl going to risk annoying passengers in their main networks for a 2 car branch line that can easily be served by rail replacement buses.

The new cross trains in the peaks take the people who can't physically fit onto the other services.
Remove them and the other services will be late.
 

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Why are tfl going to risk annoying passengers in their main networks for a 2 car branch line that can easily be served by rail replacement buses.

The new cross trains in the peaks take the people who can't physically fit onto the other services.
Remove them and the other services will be late.
Yeah I tried going to New Cross Gate instead of New Cross a few years ago and I couldn't board any London Overground trains towards Dalston in the end had to take Southern, Southeastern to Cannon Street then Circle to Liverpool St and LO to Hackney Downs. Everything is crowded in the peaks around New Cross/Deptford/Surrey Quays in the peaks and this is the service that acts as our guaranteed train we can board.
 

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Yeah I tried going to New Cross Gate instead of New Cross a few years ago and I couldn't board any London Overground trains towards Dalston in the end had to take Southern, Southeastern to Cannon Street then Circle to Liverpool St and LO to Hackney Downs. Everything is crowded in the peaks around New Cross/Deptford/Surrey Quays in the peaks and this is the service that acts as our guaranteed train we can board.
I find it hard to believe that there are more than a few such people, and surely fewer than use the GOBLIN.
 

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Besides, a movement from New Cross to Surrey Quays conflicts with movements from Surrey Quays to New Cross Gate so it is an easy one to justify dropping from a purely occupational standpoint.
 

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