Class 378's to be shortened to 4 cars and used on GOBLIN?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by MatthewRead, 26 Dec 2018.

  1. Mikey C

    Mikey C Established Member

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    Caught a 378 today on the GOBLIN, a real sea change in smoothness and quietness over the 172s, which by DMU standards were pretty good anyway

    Not as busy as I was expecting, caught the 17:54 from South Tottenham westbound and easily got a seat
     
  2. 700007

    700007 Established Member

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    I think too many passengers have been scared off from using the line for a while!
     
  3. 87015

    87015 Established Member

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    Last week of planned 378s (1 unit) on Gospel Oak. 4-cars should be out on DC tomorrow if they haven't started today.
     
  4. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    They kept that quiet! I assume that'll be because of the perceived capacity loss from 5 to 4-car units. Has the 4th DC diagram appeared now?
     
  5. robert7111a

    robert7111a Established Member

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    Have the other two been returned to Willesden to have their fifth car reinstated prior to taking up their native duties on the NLL/ELLE?
     
  6. simple simon

    simple simon Member

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    I passed through Willesden Junction a few days ago and noted that all removed 378 carriages were still in the siding.

    It will be next week before I can pass that way again, as this week coming I'll be overseas.
     
  7. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    I would think it would take a few days to do that - if tomorrow is down to one diagram for the week ahead they would logically still need two units available, surely? Plus, if four DC diagrams start tomorrow that would put a bit of slack into the 378 requirements so there would presumably be a bit of breathing space in the fleet?
     
  8. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Or will they leave them as 4-car for the DC? That's what that line will end up with anyway. The idea being to move from 3tph x 5 cars to 4tph x 4 cars, eventually as 710s, but there's a missing diagram at the moment as @samuelmorris points out. Creates a rather uneven service (15 min - 15 min - 30 min repeat).
     
  9. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    I would expect them to go back to 5 car as soon as possible so that the fleet is back to common user between DC and North London Line. They can also then re-start the overhaul programme on the 378s.
     
  10. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    I'd only expect them to go back to 5 car when they have at least 8x 710 properly bedded so they can be sure of 6 to run Goblin.
     
  11. Railperf

    Railperf Established Member

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    That would make the most sense or certainly at least 7 units minimum.
     
  12. Railperf

    Railperf Established Member

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    Despite all the talk about how lightweight these units are I was shocked to see that the average vehicle weight of 40 tonnes for a class 710 is approximately 25% heavier than the average 28 to 29 tons of a class 700 desiro City vehicle
     
  13. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    The average vehicle weight of a 710 is 36 tonnes? Compared with the 34.5 for a 700, there's not a big difference. Considering the 710s are only 4-car so a greater proportion of the unit is the heavy cab, transformer etc. that seems about right.
     
  14. rebmcr

    rebmcr Established Member

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    Despite Bombardier's patented lightweight bogies!
     
  15. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Cabs add about 1.5 to 2 tonnes each.
    Class 710 (5 car) dual voltage is 36.4 t /car average.
    5car 707 is 32.4 t /car average with transformer and pantograph removed and less traction equipment (2 fewer traction motors, the remaining motors being smaller and lighter, 1 fewer set of traction electronics).

    Class 700 (12 car) is 34.2 t /car average
    Class 700 (8 car) is 34.8 t /car average

    Bombardier and Siemens have very different equipment location strategies so you can't just compare the lightest Siemens car with virtually no equipment fitted to the lightest Bombardier one with some equipment.

    The Bombardier 710 driving cars are also about a metre longer than the Desiro City ones.

    TfL also require greater equipment redundancy for LO.
     
  16. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I don't know the individual car weights so I can't comment on those. To me though, it looks very similar.
     
  17. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    That was the point I was making without saying it directly! I also added a few extra bits to the comment after you started typing.
    The biggest weight savings from Bombardier come from the longer car lengths e.g. 22m or 24m as you have fewer bogies and then useful feedback loop effects as you need less power.
     
  18. samuelmorris

    samuelmorris Established Member

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    I doubt it adds much difference, but Aventras don't use tread brakes on the powered bogies do they?
     
  19. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Correct it helps with lots of other things though.
     
  20. CyrusWuff

    CyrusWuff Established Member

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    By way of comparison, the 313s are 104.5 tonnes for a three car (36 tonnes for the DMSO, 31 for the PTSO and 37.5 for the BDMSO), the 315s are 127.5 tonnes for a four car unit (35 tonnes for the DMSOs, 32 for the PTSO and 25.5 for the TSO) and the 317s are 137 tonnes for a four car unit (29.5 tonnes for the DTSOs, 49 tonnes for the MSO and 29 tonnes for the TCO.

    Acronyms:
    • BDMSO - Battery Driving Motor Standard Open
    • DMSO - Driving Motor Standard Open
    • DTSO - Driving Trailer Standard Open
    • MSO - Motor Standard Open
    • PTSO - Pantograph Trailer Standard Open
    • TCO - Trailer Composite Open
    • TSO - Trailer Standard Open
     
  21. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    So can anyone confirm if there is a 4 car 378 working the Watford DC this morning? One of the missing 15 minute diagrams seems to be covered (alternate hours have 4tph).
     
  22. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    378209 has been reported in another forum as in service as a 4 car on the DC line today.
     
  23. Electrojuniper

    Electrojuniper Member

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    last opportunity to ride a 4-car over the GOB route. 710's fully replace 378's Monday.
     
  24. simple simon

    simple simon Member

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    I was on the Goblin today and only saw 710's. I saw at least four Goblin trains.

    The three orphaned 378 carriages are still in the siding at Willesden Junction, but there was only one 710 there with them (previously I have seen 2x or even 3x 710's here)
     
  25. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    The 4 car 378s are operating the Watford DC route along with their usual 5 car brethren. My guess is the stock shortage for the new timetable will mean we'll see a few more 710s introduced before they get their fifth carriage back.

    There was one missing diagram today on the DC though (according to RTT) so I guess maybe there's a failed unit or one has gone elsewhere...
     
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Is it a gradual ramp up to the 8 unit (4 tph) service? Tomorrow seems to have 7 services per 2 hours, ie one half hour gap, with the other trains 15 mins apart. The 8th cancelled service appears on RTT if you include the “CAN” button. I think last week there were 2 of the 8 diagrams missing.

    Planned cancellations seem to finish this Saturday?
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2019
  27. ijmad

    ijmad Established Member

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    Still lacking that 8th diagram on the Watford DC as of today. Suggests to me that there is still a shortage of 378s? Perhaps the May timetable on the NLL/WLL has put the fleet under more pressure, and this is where it's creaking.

    Roll on the 710s on the WDC and hopefully that'll free up slack.
     
  28. bnsf734

    bnsf734 Member

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    I was at Euston yesterday and noted 378232 is still running as a 4 car set. I didn't see any more 378s on the DC lines to confirm any more sets as 4 or 5 car.
     
  29. Omnishambles

    Omnishambles Member

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    206 on the DC last week, still x4
     
  30. astock5000

    astock5000 Member

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    All three of the removed cars were still in the siding at Willesden last Thursday. I travelled on 378206 but can't remember if I saw either of the other two 4-car units out and about.
     

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